Good episode, well reported. I wonder whether it would be as tempting to go easy on the Door Dasher posting nudes of a stranger if the stranger were female. Personally, I think it's not crazy to deter people from making nonconsensual nude photos and video by subjecting them to some criminal penalties for their actions. This is antisocial behavior that violates others' privacy, and I don't think we want to allow it in society.
I had a distant relative by marriage (male) who was arrested years ago for making upskirt videos on the beach, presumably for his personal use. The arrest seemed right to me. I don't see why someone who commits a similar action AND puts the footage online should have an easier time simply because she's female.
Well, yeah. I tend to think for a lot of things "what if the shoe was on the other foot" can be a bit stupid because of the obvious differences between men and women regarding sex and sexual violence in general, but nonconsensual nude videos seems very straightforwardly illegal and intrusive.
I thought Katie’s take that criminal charges are excessive was a bit odd. For that whole story I was waiting for her to be slapped with a felony. Entering someone’s home without permission, filming that person in a state of undress without permission, and uploading the video to the internet is a pretty serious crime. It doesn’t suddenly become a non-serious crime just because the perpetrator is an attractive young woman.
Am I the only person who listens to or affiliated with this podcast who *doesn't* think that every single female who is of child-bearing years and not overweight is attractive?
Has there ever been a woman under 40 and not overweight featured on this show than Katie & Jessie don't think is hot?
She absolutely deserves jail time for this. This situation is the male equivalent of revenge porn. No one thinks a man should get “a stern talking to” for posting revenge porn.
Revenge porn is where a man posts intimate videos of their exes, usually as revenge for dumping them, for hundred of thousands of men to wank over. This was a woman pushing back against a man who she believed deliberately indecently exposed himself to her, a stranger. She shouldn't have posted it, but the two situations are absolutely not equivalent.
Thousands of people assuming a man is a sexual predator over some, admittedly poor but understandable circumstances, is not similar?
Sorry I don’t buy that. The reason I’m making the comparison is because men are less likely to deal with something like revenge porn so there isn’t a 1 to 1 comparison. But I think this is similar in that both could ruin a person’s life. Intent matters. This man obviously did not intend to expose himself to anyone.
If this guy was wide awake, with an erection and jacking off I would have more sympathy. But simply being a naked human who made a mistake while drunk does not justify the assumption that he was a predator. Leave the food at the door and walk away. No one was threatening or intimidating her.
Men post revenge porn because they are angry at being dumped. She posted this because she thought a crime had been committed against her, and likely knew the police would do nothing about it. It's just not malicious in the same way revenge porn is.
And believe me, there are plenty of men who deliberately do this shit. It is shockingly easy not to leave your door open with your pants down after you've ordered a delivery, even when drunk. There are men who call suicide hotlines just to jack off to the woman on the other end of the line for gods sake. It's not a particularly elaborate ruse for a flasher. He likely knew he had plausible deniability in this case for exactly the reasons he's being let off for what he did.
It absolutely was malicious in the same way that revenge porn is malicious. She explicitly stated that her intent was to shame him. Men who post revenge porn often times believe that they have been wronged, and that they are somehow correcting some great injustice by shaming their ex girlfriends. Those men are morally twisted, just as the DD woman is morally twisted.
Her belief that she was assaulted is born from not just a misunderstanding of the law, but also from her deep-seated misandry. First, she jumps to the conclusion that the man’s nudity was part of some deviant plan. Why? Because he is male and she believes that men are inherently deviant. Also, she believes that a man’s body is so offensive that the mere sight of it is an assault. That’s misandry.
People do uncharacteristic things in a black out. This is well documented. Go check out Sarah Hepola’s work on this. There are reasons why something like this would happen other than All Men Are Predators Unless Proven Otherwise. That thinking is toxic. And your example isn’t even relevant to this case because what you described with the suicide hotline is ACTIVE. What is described in the episode is not. Being passed out in your own home is not a crime.
She had the option to leave the food and call the police. If she truly thought the crime was serious that’s what would have happened. There are channels to deal with this stuff. If they fail then sure go online and raise a fuss.
The law has the idea of a generally rational person that we judged the reasonableness of actions against.
Would a rational person believe they were assaulted or that this was even intentional flashing? Would they go straight to a TikTok post and not even try reporting it?
No, no they would not. Thus, she is either irrational or dishonest. Doesn't really matter. Her actions were not in any way reasonable.
Jail time is way too much (and close to zero chance she’ll get it IMO). All she needs is something that will make it clear she was in the wrong and shouldn’t repeat it. There’s a real difference of intent with revenge porn because those men expect those images to live forever as porn, and to inflict the specific humiliation of having other men masturbate to them. She wanted to shame this guy but ain’t nobody jerking it to a drunk half-naked guy with mr floppy hanging out.
Let me get this straight. You want the legal system to treat men and women differently when they commit the exact same crime (posting nudes of the other gender) because the criminal understands that female nudity is more likely than male nudity to arouse people. Am I understanding your double standard correctly? Would you be so receptive to double standards that favor men instead women? For example, since we all understand that women’s bodies are more likely to arouse, and since you are fine with double standards, wouldn’t you say it is fine to pressure women to dress more modestly than men? I wouldn’t, but that’s because I’m against double standards.
I agree that intent matters. But so too does gender discrimination. You seem to think that the justice system should treat a man's right to privacy as so much less worthy of protection than a woman's right to privacy that people can non-consensually post nude photos of men online with little consequence. You also seem to think that when an offender intends sexual humiliation (as the DD lady admitted she did), we should assign it little legal culpability so long as the sexual humiliation doesn't result in masturbation. I'm not sure why you are so focused on masturbation, but in my opinion, that intent is egregious regardless of the masturbation component.
There should be consequences, but to be fair a picture of someone passed out with their cock out is a far cry from uploading a video of a person being railed to YouPorn.
Now if she videoed him being pegged on his couch you might have something.
Well, in this country, all women are permanent children who cannot be held accountable for their actions. They don't have agency in the first place, they are only capable of reacting to what men do. /s
Exactly 💯 I may have a master's degree, but patriarchy keeps me from participating fully in society. The other day a man held a door open for me, and I had to educate him on why he's a chauvanist pig. I'm such a good feminist lol.
They used hyperbole to make a valid criticism of recent cultural trends. If all you got from it was “make me a sandwich”, you misunderstood and heard what you wanted to hear. Try harder next time.
I hope she’s able to plead to something like probation before dismissal though. A criminal record is ALSO the kind of thing that can fuck up your life very disproportionately. Like the drunk guy on the couch, she made a poor decision in a circumstance unlikely to be repeated. The people asking for jail time here are lacking a sense of proportion. If I was the guy I wouldn’t want someone to have their life ruined over something I was co-responsible for.
It’s not that I think she was in the right. She was very zoomer about the whole thing. But I can see her perspective on this; men intentionally flashing delivery people, maids, cleaners etc is a genuinely very common occurrence.
She did rather persist with it, and she framed it as SA rather than indecent exposure. I can forgive her for one freakout upload, in the moment, but not doubling down and persisting.
Yeah, when I say I think she should be subjected to criminal penalties regardless of her sex, I'm not saying those penalties should include an extended jail term. I have no idea of the NY law here but would assume we're talking about a likely plea deal and a relatively minor penalty for a first-time offender.
I'd be fine with her paying a massive civil penalty to make her victim whole. But she's a door dasher so she's probably judgement proof. Thus, jail time is probably the only remedy.
If she had succeeded - which could very easily have happened, especially if this took place on a university campus, and say at the height of the #metoo moment - then he would have been arrested, labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life, probably lost his job and been unemployable, and faced criminal penalties. His reputation would have been ruined, legal fees would have destroyed him him financially.
She deserves much harsher punishment than a mere fine. She should suffer the same fate that she attempt to inflict upon him.
Otherwise, awful people like her will continue to do things like this, and innocent people will continue to have their lives ruined.
I don't want to see anyone's life ruined, but she would have been fine with destroying his. What she did was vile and cruel, and if a little jail time discourages others from such behavior in the future, I'm fine with it.
One thing that bugs me about the prevalence of cameras everywhere is someone can have a bad day and their whole life spirals.
Back when I was in high school, a friend went to a party, got wasted, peed off of a deck, and accidentally flashed about ten girls in our class. They were mildly scandalized, but it was more of a funny story than a federal case.
He went to Stanford and now he's an infectious disease expert specializing in HIV who is a committed pro-vaxxer and feminist. He recently got published in the New England Journal of Medicine, and he was a go-to for quotes from quite a few journos during 2020. He's living his best life, but if one of those girls had decided to make his life miserable, it could have gone a different way.
There's been a wholeass collapse of the continuum between annoyed, scandalized, offended, scared, and actually hurt.
Maybe getting accidentally flashed wasn't the best time for this Door Dasher, but where's the grace in any of this?
South Jersey Shore denizens will be especially appalled: shoddy execution aside, the accent they're both attempting (I think?) is like a Long Islander; the Ocean City/EHT accent is much, much closer to that of Philly/Delco.
“On October 22, 2008, Todd claimed that she was robbed at knifepoint by a ‘six-foot-four African American of medium build, dressed in dark clothes wearing shiny shoes’ at a Citizens Bank ATM in the Bloomfield neighborhood of Pittsburgh. She also alleged that after the robber saw a McCain bumper sticker on Todd's car, he assaulted her, cut a reversed letter B into her cheek, and told her ‘you are going to be a Barack supporter.’”
(The fact that the B was in mirror-image was part of the give-away.)
RE: Door Dash. I am very happy to perceive that many women have not been repeatedly flashed over their lifetime, but as a Gen-Xer and someone who has been forced to take crappy buses at night or had to walk in bad neighborhoods over these many decades, I need to say that, holy cow, yes this man was flashing her. Women who have experienced this know this. It's not uncommon. That is why she knew. She's been to this rodeo before, as they say, probably just from working crappy jobs.
This whole misperception about what was going on points also to how people just don't understand why women need strict boundaries in bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons (eyeroll) etc. Creepy men like to flash/leer at/take sexual advantage of women. And pretending like you are asleep is CLASSIC. I was once on an overnight flight (sparsely populated with flyers), everyone was asleep, and the guy behind me, feigning sleep, was poking his hand through between the seats, as if he were slumped over but clearly trying to slowly inch closer and closer forward to touch me. (I called the flight attendant over and she totally let him have it, probably b/c she'd seen this before. Also, I have photographic proof of this! I took pictures of his hand! When I posted them on Facebook everyone was stunned.) I have been on a late night bus where a man sat next to me, feigned sleep, and very slowly slid his fingers onto my thigh (I was wearing a skirt). Aside from the sleep tactic, I have been classically flashed by a man in an actual trench coat, sat next to someone on an L.A. bus who started jerking off right next to me, have had men spread their legs and point their bulge in my direction, etc. And I am a very average, librarian-looking female. If it has happened to me chronically over my boring lifetime, trust me, it's a thing. Maybe this is somewhat less of an issue in the 21st century (or people have other outlets for this stuff) but, yes, it's a typical creep thing to do.
What are the chances that someone would order Door Dash, be home but ask the deliverer to leave it at the door, have the door wide open (!!!), and be positioned so that the person at the door could see him, and have all other clothes on but his below the waist totally naked? Do you really think that is probable? Is it not more likely that this guy gets off on flashing women and does this regularly?
What she should have done was notify Door Dash so that they would, in the future, only send men to his door. That would have been the logical and strategic thing to do. But, yes, 23 years old, maybe that is not so obvious.
So you think there is no chance that a person could be drunk, order door dash, take off their pants, and pass out on a couch? That seems a pretty plausible reading, but if he did intend to do it, than what are the chances that this is an isolated case? The fact that there is no history of this lends weight to the innocent version, although it's not conclusive either way.
What is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt is that she posted a video of a naked man online, a man who was naked in his own house, not visible at all from the public, and arguably not readily visible from where she was instructed to be. (notice the camera had to pan to see the guy). Our dear author and podcast host Katie Herzog has a story in her book about peeing in her yard. If she had drunkenly ordered food first, and then had that recorded and disseminated, should she have been attacked?
The appropriate act from her was to report it to the police, so they can check for prior history (and have a record if it repeats).
She says the delivery was about 15 minutes after his call. I think she says that twice. There is no reason to believe he is drunk, and I don't know why everyone keeps repeating that as if it is gospel. He said that, which is a logical thing to say if you are caught doing that kind of thing. No reason to believe that is true. So in 15 minutes (let's assume it's actually 20), he orders food, lies down on his couch with the door open (please explain why his door would be wide open in a NYC apartment building, even if drunk or tired--this is literally bizarre), he for some reason pulls his pants and underwear down to his ankles (he did not take off his pants), and all of this in an obviously small living room in which anyone at the doorway could see him as plain as day. If you watch the video, it is more than obvious that if you are in the doorway, you are going to see him whether you want to or not. It's a very small space. He is right there. His nether-region is facing the door, not the other way.
It almost certainly was not an isolated case, but it's pretty common for people to do these minor things and never get reported, so we'll never know. Most women/children just take the emotional blow and move on. I agree that she should not have posted the video, although when the person was trying to touch me on the plane my obvious first instinct, without thinking, was to photograph it. And yeah, I posted it on Facebook. You could not see the guy's face, but it helps to get validation that this is offensive, because it sucks for this to happen to you. (Let me add that the guy from the plane then followed me for a while after i got off the plane and was truly scary. These guys are usually not just flasher/groper-hobbyists. They are scary human beings.) I also would not call this an "assault" but it certainly is a sexual offense. I also think it was appropriate for her to get let go by Door Dash since she did post it. She should not have. But I understand the impetus. (And that lawyer woman on the other TikTok comes off waaaaay more as an attention-seeking narcissist a-hole than the Door Dash woman, and is basing her smug "gotcha" on almost nothing.)
She also implies in the video that she had contacted Door Dash before due to problems with customers, so again, this is a crappy job and a lot of garbage happens to you on these jobs, especially if you are female, especially if you are an attractive, young female. If this kind of thing has NOT happened to you, awesome. I hope it never does. But this is very recognizable to many women.
The door being wide open raises the probability it was intentional flashing, but we don't know who opened the door. It's possible it was only open a crack and she pushed it open before the video starts.
Rules of internet video: #1 is "why were they filming?", but a close #2 is "what happened before they hit record?"
I would normally give her the benefit of the doubt, but she posted it on TikTok, so I think it's equally probable she manipulated the situation in order to make it look as bad as possible.
NY Post reporting said the Ring Cam footage shows the door closed, but cracked, and her pushing it open and stepping inside before she started filming.
The response here from Barpoders emphasizes the importance of getting photo/video evidence because the default assumption is that the person being exposed to is the guilty party (Like how those who report family abuse are usually seen as the bad guy rather than the person committing the abuse). Like you I agree she shouldn't have posted to tiktok but if I saw a random dick and no one else was around I would PANIC. It is scary as hell and the doordasher was all alone.
Thank you! I feel like I'm going crazy with their take on this… if you've ordered a delivery and you're too lazy and rude to open the door to the driver, it's on you to make sure your dick isn't hanging out. Women in service industries get flasher all the time and no-one takes it seriously.
came here to say this. I don't think he should've been posted, and i am sympathetic to the idea of drunk accidents, but the indecent exposure arguments laid out in the episode fail to consider that he took his dick out and left his door open after *intentionally* calling a delivery person to his property. I dont think him being drunk and stupid is the copout people are claiming. It could've been accidental, yes, or he could've been doing this on purpose While Drunk and just fallen asleep. That's why the police report had that specific stipulation about him not doing it again – that kind of deniability only works once. if that.
Gosh, yes, yes, yes. Men exposing themselves, groping, etc., most women could say the same. My hopes were that #metoo would open people's eyes to this. I like men, have (and do) loved several, but the invisibility of old womanhood has its benefits. Not that it's a perfect shield, sadly there are plenty of older women who are assaulted, too, but it's rarer.
Do I give him the benefit of the doubt? Yes, but it's a slim chance. And, yes, she made the wrong choice.
Yes, this is NOT a knock on the vast majority of men. Most of my friends are men, and have been for my adult life. I really really like men. But also it would be very helpful if they were more cognizant of this problem and stuck up for women, since it is pretty one-directional. It is hard for us to fight against this without their self-administered assistance.
fucking thank you. This comment section is off the charts stupid this time around. Is it POSSIBLE there was another explanation? Yes. But when you order something to be delivered immediately, open your front door, pull your junk out, and then lay there in full view of the porch, there's only one answer that fits with Occam's razor and that is that you wanted the person you summoned to your porch to see your junk.
Yes I was struck by their certainty that this *had* to be an accident too. Obviously we can't know for sure, but it all lined up a little too perfectly and it is totally within the realm of creepy behaviour. She comes across as a bit immature and should not have posted photos/video of him but I can definitely believe this could have been intentional on his part.
Yeah. I would be much more likely to believe his story if it didn't involve the door being wide open. I've been drunk before. I've never been so drunk that I left the door wide open after stripping naked, let alone in Oswego where it was 40 degrees on the date of the incident.
Well, being that it does not get erect on command, if the guy is lying in wait, it's not certain what the state of the thing will be. And I'm pretty sure even guys who have a hard time getting it up can be perverts.
I imagine if the guy was doing it for perverted reasons, it would be erect. I would find it insane to go through all those lengths, immoral behavior, all while risking jail time if your heart wasn't in the game.
So basic norms, such as not publicly posting other people’s genitalia without their consent, seem to be nonexistent among the youth because the sense of offense supersedes such norms? “But I was victimized!”
This may also be related to the gradual criminalizing of all uncomfortable interactions with the opposite sex and the dismissal of someone’s intention as being relevant to a situation.
Jesse's next book can be about the rise of victimhood culture. Victimhood=Status is another example of an idea creeping into our culture that really upends stuff, and in really unhelpful ways.
I think it starts out with seeing poor people (or "the powerless" of any sort), feeling guilty that they exist, then saying "there's nothing wrong with being poor," and then the sweet, sweet taste of blaming others for this poverty, etc.
So maybe it's not victimhood, but the power of blame and benefits of retribution that has really gained cultural purchase. Victimhood is just the spark that gets the fire roaring.
They're trained to think of male sexuality as inherently aggressive and threatening. It never occurred to her that this man deserved privacy or that she was invading his space in the first place because she's been taught that only men need to value women's privacy.
I wasn't trained to think of male sexuality that way. I have experienced it on multiple occasions. Harassment, groping, sexual violence. In the beginning I was positively naive about men and their sexual intentions/aggression levels. Most men aren't sexually aggressive, but many are, and if you want proof go look at rape stats, or at porn and the increasingly extreme, violent shit many men need to orgasm at this point in our civilisation
The DoorDash story is so disturbing. The only reason I would snoop into a private residence during work is if I thought someone urgently needed help. I can’t believe someone would see an incapacitated person in a vulnerable position and think “how can I exploit this for profit?” instead of “does this person need help?”
And yes, an eight year sentence—of which she would likely serve only 4-5 years—is an appropriate punishment for purposefully trying to ruin someone’s life and literally getting your actions and intentions caught on camera. Is this man’s right to privacy and entire social reputation worth less than that?
Sorry but it's not hard to keep your pants on and your door shut when you order a door dash. Deliberate indecent exposure is extremely likely here and this guy was smart knowing he had plausible deniability knowing he could claim to just be drunk.
You really believe he planned some scenario where he pulls his pants down, lays on the couch and cracks the door "just so" then orders food and hopes they see him?
Some sources reported that the man's ring camera footage even shows the door barely open and her opening the door and stepping inside to film. In this scenario, his devious scheming also involves "tempting" someone to open his door after being instructed to leave the food at the door.
I feel like we're making a 4D level chess stretch when Occam's is pointing at passed out drunk guy and an unhinged influencer making a likes grab.
The weird and elaborate shit some men do in order to get sexual kicks is long, exhaustive, and at times extremely creative. You know this. I know this. Everybody knows this. This isn't even a very elaborate ploy compared to many. And it's perfect because he has plausible deniability.
Men call suicide hotlines to jack off to the female caller's voice telling them to hold on. They crawl into chemical toilet tanks in order to satisfy their fetish to get defecated on. And many men are absolutely determined to show unconsenting women their dicks. This is a simple and non-risky ploy in the scheme of things.
Imagine being a resident of a small town like Oswego, NY and you learn a delivery driver has gone to someone's home, recorded a naked video of them, and posted it online. It's entirely reasonable to expect the local police to protect the community from that behavior.
Yeah her only hope would be arguing that she was genuinely afraid and confused, and therefore acted impulsively, but she confirmed her bad intentions in the video!
It’s not just #believeallwomen. It’s the culture of public shaming that this young woman was raised in. You could destroy a complete stranger’s life with one out of context photo, and you’d be rewarded for it.
Also, most Door Dashers in NY are immigrant men who don’t speak much English. I doubt this guy expected a 23-year-old girl to show up at his door.
Your last paragraph is a key point (intentionally?)being missed by the "guy may be a flasher" crowd. I've never used Doordash but I would presume customer has no clue who is making the delivery.
The app tells you your dasher’s name when they're on the way, so if he planned this and was only feigning sleep (not really what I think happened, but it's possibly) he would have known that a presumably female dasher would be delivering his food.
In my own experience using DoorDash it’s been common enough for a feminine name to be shown on the app only for a dude to arrive at my door that I’ve stopped having any expectations about the sex of the person I will be encountering. Not that I need any expectations about that, since my only shameful purpose in ordering DoorDash is the food itself.
I haven't ordered DoorDash in quite awhile but I always did the "leave it at the door" option (as I also feel shameful about the purpose I'd rather not have to be face to face with the person making the delivery) so I have no idea how often this may be true. I think it explains why he might have believed a female dasher was coming though, if indeed it was on purpose.
I suspect that when it is true it's mostly because the female driver has her partner with her and sends him to the door, perhaps to avoid scenarios like the one under discussion.
You guys are being so naive about naked couch guy's motives. There are absolutely men who do stuff like this, I know women have experienced them. It is very likely he was feigning being unconscious. This is not sexual assault but it is still deliberate indecent exposure, he would have seen she was a female driver on the app. She was wrong to post things online but the police would have done nothing anyway, so what exactly is her recourse in this situation? There's a great article by Roisin Michaux about how you meet a lot more perverts when you're working class, which is a great read for all of us privileged middle class pinko liberals who really don't understand what it's actually like to move through the world as a woman in a lower socio-economic class. https://4w.pub/you-meet-more-perverts-when-poor/
It's absolutely possible that he meant to do this. The police report was the right move. The posting naked pictures of a man in his own home was not the right move, and is criminal.
The important thing to remember is that he might have meant to, or he might not have, and we are all just speculating.
Also, the police did do something when she reported it. They spoke to him, and said if it reoccurs he'll face penalties. That seems the appropriate response. What else would you like to happen?
That's a fair response from the police - I'm just not a fan of the way she is immediately branded a clout chaser and he's just a poor innocent drunk guy who happened to pass out with his dick out and his door open. This show covers so many horrendously sick fetishes like vore and gooning but suddenly it's just beyond the realms of possibility that the naked guy flashing a young lone female in a low-wage job is doing it intentionally? It gets my hackles up
I think it's fair to call her a clout chaser. Her response, given the information we have, even assuming the most generous interpretation to her, was not appropriate (and probably criminal).
He could go either way. So I understand why someone would be annoyed at the dismissal of the potential he's a bad actor, particularly if they've been a victim of similar actions themselves. (I know I get angry at Jessie for his knee jerk defense of any and all antisemtism on a similar basis).
Thank you for acknowledging what I mean. I am in principle very much against dealing with problems by posting them on the internet, for what it's worth. I just find the treatment unequal in this case and it makes me itch. Yeah, maybe she is a clout chaser, there are millions of them out there. Maybe she's also just a young working class lesbian tired of men trying to show her their dicks, who lost her judgement and composure because she feels disenfranchised by society. I feel like if we're going to entertain the notion that naked sofa guy wasn't a bad actor we should do her the same courtesy.
The public's reaction would be very different if they were hearing it from a local news station in the vein of "Local man arrested for allegedly exposing themselves to a door dasher" instead of avoiding the law enforcement altogether and allowing this supposed criminal to "attack" other women.
He's branded a perv because he was lying on his couch with his pants down with the door wide open knowing someone was coming to the door. Which is worse?
Thank you for making this point. Men exposing themselves to women are not the victims ffs. I don't agree with her rush to social media but if it were me I would def take a photo or video and then share that content with the police. Otherwise there is no proof. Plus there could be a pattern of this behavior if she doesn't have proof then there's no way to establish the pattern.
But there's a world of difference between taking a picture and showing it to the police, and uploading and then reuploading and then doing it again for the world to see, BEFORE going to the police. If she had just reported to the police everything would be fine. He would be warned (as he was), there would be a record (as there is), and potentially his account would be flagged or closed. What would not have happened is there would not be non consensual nude video of this man online.
If you think people sharing non consensual nude videos is wrong, than clearly the first scenario is better. If you disagree, and think we should be able to spread porn of people against their will, then unfortunately for you, most societies disagree.
I think this is not unlikely, but I think it would be hard prove from a single instance. It possible he passed out naked, especially if he was drunk. Not to say it completely excuses the instance, but intentions matter. If this was some sort of fetish though, it would be something he does repeatedly. Eventually it will become obvious that this is no accident
No one is saying that it's impossible that he's a perv who did this intentionally.
But there's no proof that he was, it's nothing more than a possibility, while there is definitive, unequivocal evidence that she acted egregiously in multiple ways - doxing him, posting the nude video, and falsely accusing him of sexual assault. All of that is very bad.
And even if we end up learning that he actually did this for fetish reasons, and was only pretending to be asleep, that doesn't change much in my opinion. She would still be wrong, and still deserve to be in prison.
Because she would have no way of knowing that was the case, and in any case she chose to violate his privacy and make false accusations.
He was still in his own home. There's no law against being nude in your own home, or masturbating in your own home.
If she had followed his instructions and just put down the food at his door and left, she wouldn't have seen anything.
The accounts I heard are that the door was only open a crack and she pushed it open, and I'm inclined to believe that, but even if the door was wide open, that changes little. No one forced her to stare at his junk from across the room. Nothing prevented her from minding her own business.
I grew up in Oswego. It’s a really economically depressed place (with a great deal of problem drinking and all of the sad things that go along with it). While it might be true that the DoorDash girl was truly upset at the sight of a naked sleeping drunk man, I agree with the theory that her motivation was not getting enough attention for being a member of the working poor…that’s just not very interesting in Central NY.
if a man walked into my apartment, door open or not, took a naked photo of me passed out, and posted it to the internet multiple times, he'd be in jail. This Thankgiving this doordasher should feel thankful she doesn't have a penis.
I'm not sure which disturbs me more....the DoorDash story, the New Jersey story, or the revelation that there's people who aspire to a career in HR.
(I kinda understand the criminal charges w/r/t the video; you have an expectation of privacy *inside your home*, and the _shared_ video of him in his home was a violation of that expectation. If she'd gone to DD with the story, they'd have taken action to prevent him from using the service in the future. Yeah, he's a freak. Doesn't mean it's okay to post videos of him online....whether he consented is not something that really matters. I can't hire someone to murder me, either. Same principle...)
So if I’m understanding this correctly - unexpected dick is SA in this scenario, but totally fine and nothing to complain about if encountered in a woman’s locker room/spa etc…
Good episode, well reported. I wonder whether it would be as tempting to go easy on the Door Dasher posting nudes of a stranger if the stranger were female. Personally, I think it's not crazy to deter people from making nonconsensual nude photos and video by subjecting them to some criminal penalties for their actions. This is antisocial behavior that violates others' privacy, and I don't think we want to allow it in society.
I had a distant relative by marriage (male) who was arrested years ago for making upskirt videos on the beach, presumably for his personal use. The arrest seemed right to me. I don't see why someone who commits a similar action AND puts the footage online should have an easier time simply because she's female.
Well, yeah. I tend to think for a lot of things "what if the shoe was on the other foot" can be a bit stupid because of the obvious differences between men and women regarding sex and sexual violence in general, but nonconsensual nude videos seems very straightforwardly illegal and intrusive.
I thought Katie’s take that criminal charges are excessive was a bit odd. For that whole story I was waiting for her to be slapped with a felony. Entering someone’s home without permission, filming that person in a state of undress without permission, and uploading the video to the internet is a pretty serious crime. It doesn’t suddenly become a non-serious crime just because the perpetrator is an attractive young woman.
Am I the only person who listens to or affiliated with this podcast who *doesn't* think that every single female who is of child-bearing years and not overweight is attractive?
Has there ever been a woman under 40 and not overweight featured on this show than Katie & Jessie don't think is hot?
I’m a gay man so I don’t think she’s hot. (But at least she’s not fat!)
I don't think she entered his home, but rather filmed him through the open door. Still, I can see why her behavior was a crime
She absolutely deserves jail time for this. This situation is the male equivalent of revenge porn. No one thinks a man should get “a stern talking to” for posting revenge porn.
Revenge porn is where a man posts intimate videos of their exes, usually as revenge for dumping them, for hundred of thousands of men to wank over. This was a woman pushing back against a man who she believed deliberately indecently exposed himself to her, a stranger. She shouldn't have posted it, but the two situations are absolutely not equivalent.
Thousands of people assuming a man is a sexual predator over some, admittedly poor but understandable circumstances, is not similar?
Sorry I don’t buy that. The reason I’m making the comparison is because men are less likely to deal with something like revenge porn so there isn’t a 1 to 1 comparison. But I think this is similar in that both could ruin a person’s life. Intent matters. This man obviously did not intend to expose himself to anyone.
If this guy was wide awake, with an erection and jacking off I would have more sympathy. But simply being a naked human who made a mistake while drunk does not justify the assumption that he was a predator. Leave the food at the door and walk away. No one was threatening or intimidating her.
Men post revenge porn because they are angry at being dumped. She posted this because she thought a crime had been committed against her, and likely knew the police would do nothing about it. It's just not malicious in the same way revenge porn is.
And believe me, there are plenty of men who deliberately do this shit. It is shockingly easy not to leave your door open with your pants down after you've ordered a delivery, even when drunk. There are men who call suicide hotlines just to jack off to the woman on the other end of the line for gods sake. It's not a particularly elaborate ruse for a flasher. He likely knew he had plausible deniability in this case for exactly the reasons he's being let off for what he did.
It absolutely was malicious in the same way that revenge porn is malicious. She explicitly stated that her intent was to shame him. Men who post revenge porn often times believe that they have been wronged, and that they are somehow correcting some great injustice by shaming their ex girlfriends. Those men are morally twisted, just as the DD woman is morally twisted.
Her belief that she was assaulted is born from not just a misunderstanding of the law, but also from her deep-seated misandry. First, she jumps to the conclusion that the man’s nudity was part of some deviant plan. Why? Because he is male and she believes that men are inherently deviant. Also, she believes that a man’s body is so offensive that the mere sight of it is an assault. That’s misandry.
People do uncharacteristic things in a black out. This is well documented. Go check out Sarah Hepola’s work on this. There are reasons why something like this would happen other than All Men Are Predators Unless Proven Otherwise. That thinking is toxic. And your example isn’t even relevant to this case because what you described with the suicide hotline is ACTIVE. What is described in the episode is not. Being passed out in your own home is not a crime.
She had the option to leave the food and call the police. If she truly thought the crime was serious that’s what would have happened. There are channels to deal with this stuff. If they fail then sure go online and raise a fuss.
I disagree. This was 100% malicious.
The law has the idea of a generally rational person that we judged the reasonableness of actions against.
Would a rational person believe they were assaulted or that this was even intentional flashing? Would they go straight to a TikTok post and not even try reporting it?
No, no they would not. Thus, she is either irrational or dishonest. Doesn't really matter. Her actions were not in any way reasonable.
It’s fairly traumatizing for a man. Perspective-taking is always in order.
Jail time is way too much (and close to zero chance she’ll get it IMO). All she needs is something that will make it clear she was in the wrong and shouldn’t repeat it. There’s a real difference of intent with revenge porn because those men expect those images to live forever as porn, and to inflict the specific humiliation of having other men masturbate to them. She wanted to shame this guy but ain’t nobody jerking it to a drunk half-naked guy with mr floppy hanging out.
Let me get this straight. You want the legal system to treat men and women differently when they commit the exact same crime (posting nudes of the other gender) because the criminal understands that female nudity is more likely than male nudity to arouse people. Am I understanding your double standard correctly? Would you be so receptive to double standards that favor men instead women? For example, since we all understand that women’s bodies are more likely to arouse, and since you are fine with double standards, wouldn’t you say it is fine to pressure women to dress more modestly than men? I wouldn’t, but that’s because I’m against double standards.
Intent matters, didja listen to the episode at all?
I agree that intent matters. But so too does gender discrimination. You seem to think that the justice system should treat a man's right to privacy as so much less worthy of protection than a woman's right to privacy that people can non-consensually post nude photos of men online with little consequence. You also seem to think that when an offender intends sexual humiliation (as the DD lady admitted she did), we should assign it little legal culpability so long as the sexual humiliation doesn't result in masturbation. I'm not sure why you are so focused on masturbation, but in my opinion, that intent is egregious regardless of the masturbation component.
Ok Mgtow Grandpa, it’s time for bed
I usually don’t disagree with Jesse and/or Katie, but I was stunned when they thought all she should get was effectively a slap on the wrist.
There should be consequences, but to be fair a picture of someone passed out with their cock out is a far cry from uploading a video of a person being railed to YouPorn.
Now if she videoed him being pegged on his couch you might have something.
Well, in this country, all women are permanent children who cannot be held accountable for their actions. They don't have agency in the first place, they are only capable of reacting to what men do. /s
Exactly 💯 I may have a master's degree, but patriarchy keeps me from participating fully in society. The other day a man held a door open for me, and I had to educate him on why he's a chauvanist pig. I'm such a good feminist lol.
Jesus christ
I know right... a comment section for paid subscribers and we're basically at "make me a sandwich" discourse.
They used hyperbole to make a valid criticism of recent cultural trends. If all you got from it was “make me a sandwich”, you misunderstood and heard what you wanted to hear. Try harder next time.
Is this paid subscribers only? I thought all sorts of perverts could wander in here.
I hope she’s able to plead to something like probation before dismissal though. A criminal record is ALSO the kind of thing that can fuck up your life very disproportionately. Like the drunk guy on the couch, she made a poor decision in a circumstance unlikely to be repeated. The people asking for jail time here are lacking a sense of proportion. If I was the guy I wouldn’t want someone to have their life ruined over something I was co-responsible for.
It’s not that I think she was in the right. She was very zoomer about the whole thing. But I can see her perspective on this; men intentionally flashing delivery people, maids, cleaners etc is a genuinely very common occurrence.
She did rather persist with it, and she framed it as SA rather than indecent exposure. I can forgive her for one freakout upload, in the moment, but not doubling down and persisting.
Yeah, when I say I think she should be subjected to criminal penalties regardless of her sex, I'm not saying those penalties should include an extended jail term. I have no idea of the NY law here but would assume we're talking about a likely plea deal and a relatively minor penalty for a first-time offender.
I'd be fine with her paying a massive civil penalty to make her victim whole. But she's a door dasher so she's probably judgement proof. Thus, jail time is probably the only remedy.
If she had succeeded - which could very easily have happened, especially if this took place on a university campus, and say at the height of the #metoo moment - then he would have been arrested, labeled a sex offender for the rest of his life, probably lost his job and been unemployable, and faced criminal penalties. His reputation would have been ruined, legal fees would have destroyed him him financially.
She deserves much harsher punishment than a mere fine. She should suffer the same fate that she attempt to inflict upon him.
Otherwise, awful people like her will continue to do things like this, and innocent people will continue to have their lives ruined.
I don't want to see anyone's life ruined, but she would have been fine with destroying his. What she did was vile and cruel, and if a little jail time discourages others from such behavior in the future, I'm fine with it.
One thing that bugs me about the prevalence of cameras everywhere is someone can have a bad day and their whole life spirals.
Back when I was in high school, a friend went to a party, got wasted, peed off of a deck, and accidentally flashed about ten girls in our class. They were mildly scandalized, but it was more of a funny story than a federal case.
He went to Stanford and now he's an infectious disease expert specializing in HIV who is a committed pro-vaxxer and feminist. He recently got published in the New England Journal of Medicine, and he was a go-to for quotes from quite a few journos during 2020. He's living his best life, but if one of those girls had decided to make his life miserable, it could have gone a different way.
There's been a wholeass collapse of the continuum between annoyed, scandalized, offended, scared, and actually hurt.
Maybe getting accidentally flashed wasn't the best time for this Door Dasher, but where's the grace in any of this?
Grace is dead, but not so dead as the benefit of the doubt, which has decayed to less than dust at this point.
The most egregious crime in this episode is Jesse and Katie's accent work.
South Jersey Shore denizens will be especially appalled: shoddy execution aside, the accent they're both attempting (I think?) is like a Long Islander; the Ocean City/EHT accent is much, much closer to that of Philly/Delco.
I didn't think Katie could do an accent worse than her British one, but she proved me wrong
Goys!
The right-wing hate-crime hoax Jesse was struggling to remember might have been this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashley_Todd_mugging_hoax
“On October 22, 2008, Todd claimed that she was robbed at knifepoint by a ‘six-foot-four African American of medium build, dressed in dark clothes wearing shiny shoes’ at a Citizens Bank ATM in the Bloomfield neighborhood of Pittsburgh. She also alleged that after the robber saw a McCain bumper sticker on Todd's car, he assaulted her, cut a reversed letter B into her cheek, and told her ‘you are going to be a Barack supporter.’”
(The fact that the B was in mirror-image was part of the give-away.)
Yeah, this was the one I was thinking of too.
Any "hate crime" involving the perps writing something mean on someone's body or property is a hoax 100% of the time.
Shiny shoes!
Would she have felt “safer” if he identified as a woman?
Asking for women in locker rooms. . . .
RE: Door Dash. I am very happy to perceive that many women have not been repeatedly flashed over their lifetime, but as a Gen-Xer and someone who has been forced to take crappy buses at night or had to walk in bad neighborhoods over these many decades, I need to say that, holy cow, yes this man was flashing her. Women who have experienced this know this. It's not uncommon. That is why she knew. She's been to this rodeo before, as they say, probably just from working crappy jobs.
This whole misperception about what was going on points also to how people just don't understand why women need strict boundaries in bathrooms, changing rooms, prisons (eyeroll) etc. Creepy men like to flash/leer at/take sexual advantage of women. And pretending like you are asleep is CLASSIC. I was once on an overnight flight (sparsely populated with flyers), everyone was asleep, and the guy behind me, feigning sleep, was poking his hand through between the seats, as if he were slumped over but clearly trying to slowly inch closer and closer forward to touch me. (I called the flight attendant over and she totally let him have it, probably b/c she'd seen this before. Also, I have photographic proof of this! I took pictures of his hand! When I posted them on Facebook everyone was stunned.) I have been on a late night bus where a man sat next to me, feigned sleep, and very slowly slid his fingers onto my thigh (I was wearing a skirt). Aside from the sleep tactic, I have been classically flashed by a man in an actual trench coat, sat next to someone on an L.A. bus who started jerking off right next to me, have had men spread their legs and point their bulge in my direction, etc. And I am a very average, librarian-looking female. If it has happened to me chronically over my boring lifetime, trust me, it's a thing. Maybe this is somewhat less of an issue in the 21st century (or people have other outlets for this stuff) but, yes, it's a typical creep thing to do.
What are the chances that someone would order Door Dash, be home but ask the deliverer to leave it at the door, have the door wide open (!!!), and be positioned so that the person at the door could see him, and have all other clothes on but his below the waist totally naked? Do you really think that is probable? Is it not more likely that this guy gets off on flashing women and does this regularly?
What she should have done was notify Door Dash so that they would, in the future, only send men to his door. That would have been the logical and strategic thing to do. But, yes, 23 years old, maybe that is not so obvious.
So you think there is no chance that a person could be drunk, order door dash, take off their pants, and pass out on a couch? That seems a pretty plausible reading, but if he did intend to do it, than what are the chances that this is an isolated case? The fact that there is no history of this lends weight to the innocent version, although it's not conclusive either way.
What is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt is that she posted a video of a naked man online, a man who was naked in his own house, not visible at all from the public, and arguably not readily visible from where she was instructed to be. (notice the camera had to pan to see the guy). Our dear author and podcast host Katie Herzog has a story in her book about peeing in her yard. If she had drunkenly ordered food first, and then had that recorded and disseminated, should she have been attacked?
The appropriate act from her was to report it to the police, so they can check for prior history (and have a record if it repeats).
She says the delivery was about 15 minutes after his call. I think she says that twice. There is no reason to believe he is drunk, and I don't know why everyone keeps repeating that as if it is gospel. He said that, which is a logical thing to say if you are caught doing that kind of thing. No reason to believe that is true. So in 15 minutes (let's assume it's actually 20), he orders food, lies down on his couch with the door open (please explain why his door would be wide open in a NYC apartment building, even if drunk or tired--this is literally bizarre), he for some reason pulls his pants and underwear down to his ankles (he did not take off his pants), and all of this in an obviously small living room in which anyone at the doorway could see him as plain as day. If you watch the video, it is more than obvious that if you are in the doorway, you are going to see him whether you want to or not. It's a very small space. He is right there. His nether-region is facing the door, not the other way.
It almost certainly was not an isolated case, but it's pretty common for people to do these minor things and never get reported, so we'll never know. Most women/children just take the emotional blow and move on. I agree that she should not have posted the video, although when the person was trying to touch me on the plane my obvious first instinct, without thinking, was to photograph it. And yeah, I posted it on Facebook. You could not see the guy's face, but it helps to get validation that this is offensive, because it sucks for this to happen to you. (Let me add that the guy from the plane then followed me for a while after i got off the plane and was truly scary. These guys are usually not just flasher/groper-hobbyists. They are scary human beings.) I also would not call this an "assault" but it certainly is a sexual offense. I also think it was appropriate for her to get let go by Door Dash since she did post it. She should not have. But I understand the impetus. (And that lawyer woman on the other TikTok comes off waaaaay more as an attention-seeking narcissist a-hole than the Door Dash woman, and is basing her smug "gotcha" on almost nothing.)
She also implies in the video that she had contacted Door Dash before due to problems with customers, so again, this is a crappy job and a lot of garbage happens to you on these jobs, especially if you are female, especially if you are an attractive, young female. If this kind of thing has NOT happened to you, awesome. I hope it never does. But this is very recognizable to many women.
The door being wide open raises the probability it was intentional flashing, but we don't know who opened the door. It's possible it was only open a crack and she pushed it open before the video starts.
Rules of internet video: #1 is "why were they filming?", but a close #2 is "what happened before they hit record?"
I would normally give her the benefit of the doubt, but she posted it on TikTok, so I think it's equally probable she manipulated the situation in order to make it look as bad as possible.
NY Post reporting said the Ring Cam footage shows the door closed, but cracked, and her pushing it open and stepping inside before she started filming.
The response here from Barpoders emphasizes the importance of getting photo/video evidence because the default assumption is that the person being exposed to is the guilty party (Like how those who report family abuse are usually seen as the bad guy rather than the person committing the abuse). Like you I agree she shouldn't have posted to tiktok but if I saw a random dick and no one else was around I would PANIC. It is scary as hell and the doordasher was all alone.
She entered his his home without reason. She might be scared but not scared enough to make videos?
She wasn’t in his house she was looking into the door from outside
For what it's worth,we're talking about a small town house in upstate NY. Not an NYC apartment building.
Oh, somehow I did miss that! Thank you. But my assessment stands!
Thank you! I feel like I'm going crazy with their take on this… if you've ordered a delivery and you're too lazy and rude to open the door to the driver, it's on you to make sure your dick isn't hanging out. Women in service industries get flasher all the time and no-one takes it seriously.
I totally agree. There's no proof, but knowing what I know about men, the chance this wasn't intentional is so, so low.
The NY Post said the Ring Cam footage showed the door closed, but slightly cracked and Olivia pushing it open uninvited and stepping inside to film.
Assuming this is true (the article interviews the police and this is an empirical claim of hard evidence), does that change your assessment of events?
The video is posted. I do not see that in the video. Shoddy news sources do get things wrong, especially if the writer is biased.
came here to say this. I don't think he should've been posted, and i am sympathetic to the idea of drunk accidents, but the indecent exposure arguments laid out in the episode fail to consider that he took his dick out and left his door open after *intentionally* calling a delivery person to his property. I dont think him being drunk and stupid is the copout people are claiming. It could've been accidental, yes, or he could've been doing this on purpose While Drunk and just fallen asleep. That's why the police report had that specific stipulation about him not doing it again – that kind of deniability only works once. if that.
Gosh, yes, yes, yes. Men exposing themselves, groping, etc., most women could say the same. My hopes were that #metoo would open people's eyes to this. I like men, have (and do) loved several, but the invisibility of old womanhood has its benefits. Not that it's a perfect shield, sadly there are plenty of older women who are assaulted, too, but it's rarer.
Do I give him the benefit of the doubt? Yes, but it's a slim chance. And, yes, she made the wrong choice.
Yes, this is NOT a knock on the vast majority of men. Most of my friends are men, and have been for my adult life. I really really like men. But also it would be very helpful if they were more cognizant of this problem and stuck up for women, since it is pretty one-directional. It is hard for us to fight against this without their self-administered assistance.
fucking thank you. This comment section is off the charts stupid this time around. Is it POSSIBLE there was another explanation? Yes. But when you order something to be delivered immediately, open your front door, pull your junk out, and then lay there in full view of the porch, there's only one answer that fits with Occam's razor and that is that you wanted the person you summoned to your porch to see your junk.
Yes I was struck by their certainty that this *had* to be an accident too. Obviously we can't know for sure, but it all lined up a little too perfectly and it is totally within the realm of creepy behaviour. She comes across as a bit immature and should not have posted photos/video of him but I can definitely believe this could have been intentional on his part.
Yeah. I would be much more likely to believe his story if it didn't involve the door being wide open. I've been drunk before. I've never been so drunk that I left the door wide open after stripping naked, let alone in Oswego where it was 40 degrees on the date of the incident.
This, and the comments has changed my mind.
I take your point. I wonder though what the state of his penis was? If erect, well then he’s a flasher! But if flaccid?? Not sure.
I have only seen erect penises flashed at me, but perhaps there’s a flaccid penis flasher type?
Well, being that it does not get erect on command, if the guy is lying in wait, it's not certain what the state of the thing will be. And I'm pretty sure even guys who have a hard time getting it up can be perverts.
I imagine if the guy was doing it for perverted reasons, it would be erect. I would find it insane to go through all those lengths, immoral behavior, all while risking jail time if your heart wasn't in the game.
So basic norms, such as not publicly posting other people’s genitalia without their consent, seem to be nonexistent among the youth because the sense of offense supersedes such norms? “But I was victimized!”
This may also be related to the gradual criminalizing of all uncomfortable interactions with the opposite sex and the dismissal of someone’s intention as being relevant to a situation.
Jesse's next book can be about the rise of victimhood culture. Victimhood=Status is another example of an idea creeping into our culture that really upends stuff, and in really unhelpful ways.
I think it starts out with seeing poor people (or "the powerless" of any sort), feeling guilty that they exist, then saying "there's nothing wrong with being poor," and then the sweet, sweet taste of blaming others for this poverty, etc.
So maybe it's not victimhood, but the power of blame and benefits of retribution that has really gained cultural purchase. Victimhood is just the spark that gets the fire roaring.
It's not "among the youth". It's among women.
They're trained to think of male sexuality as inherently aggressive and threatening. It never occurred to her that this man deserved privacy or that she was invading his space in the first place because she's been taught that only men need to value women's privacy.
I wasn't trained to think of male sexuality that way. I have experienced it on multiple occasions. Harassment, groping, sexual violence. In the beginning I was positively naive about men and their sexual intentions/aggression levels. Most men aren't sexually aggressive, but many are, and if you want proof go look at rape stats, or at porn and the increasingly extreme, violent shit many men need to orgasm at this point in our civilisation
What do you think 'training' is?
The DoorDash story is so disturbing. The only reason I would snoop into a private residence during work is if I thought someone urgently needed help. I can’t believe someone would see an incapacitated person in a vulnerable position and think “how can I exploit this for profit?” instead of “does this person need help?”
And yes, an eight year sentence—of which she would likely serve only 4-5 years—is an appropriate punishment for purposefully trying to ruin someone’s life and literally getting your actions and intentions caught on camera. Is this man’s right to privacy and entire social reputation worth less than that?
Sorry but it's not hard to keep your pants on and your door shut when you order a door dash. Deliberate indecent exposure is extremely likely here and this guy was smart knowing he had plausible deniability knowing he could claim to just be drunk.
Are you serious? Legitimate question.
You really believe he planned some scenario where he pulls his pants down, lays on the couch and cracks the door "just so" then orders food and hopes they see him?
Some sources reported that the man's ring camera footage even shows the door barely open and her opening the door and stepping inside to film. In this scenario, his devious scheming also involves "tempting" someone to open his door after being instructed to leave the food at the door.
I feel like we're making a 4D level chess stretch when Occam's is pointing at passed out drunk guy and an unhinged influencer making a likes grab.
The weird and elaborate shit some men do in order to get sexual kicks is long, exhaustive, and at times extremely creative. You know this. I know this. Everybody knows this. This isn't even a very elaborate ploy compared to many. And it's perfect because he has plausible deniability.
Men call suicide hotlines to jack off to the female caller's voice telling them to hold on. They crawl into chemical toilet tanks in order to satisfy their fetish to get defecated on. And many men are absolutely determined to show unconsenting women their dicks. This is a simple and non-risky ploy in the scheme of things.
Imagine being a resident of a small town like Oswego, NY and you learn a delivery driver has gone to someone's home, recorded a naked video of them, and posted it online. It's entirely reasonable to expect the local police to protect the community from that behavior.
Well especially since it was done for such crass reasons. It wasn’t a legitimate confusion, just a grifter operating on an opportunity.
Yeah her only hope would be arguing that she was genuinely afraid and confused, and therefore acted impulsively, but she confirmed her bad intentions in the video!
And she posted it 3 times because it kept on being taken down! This wasn't impulsive, this was calculated.
It’s not just #believeallwomen. It’s the culture of public shaming that this young woman was raised in. You could destroy a complete stranger’s life with one out of context photo, and you’d be rewarded for it.
Also, most Door Dashers in NY are immigrant men who don’t speak much English. I doubt this guy expected a 23-year-old girl to show up at his door.
Your last paragraph is a key point (intentionally?)being missed by the "guy may be a flasher" crowd. I've never used Doordash but I would presume customer has no clue who is making the delivery.
The app tells you your dasher’s name when they're on the way, so if he planned this and was only feigning sleep (not really what I think happened, but it's possibly) he would have known that a presumably female dasher would be delivering his food.
In my own experience using DoorDash it’s been common enough for a feminine name to be shown on the app only for a dude to arrive at my door that I’ve stopped having any expectations about the sex of the person I will be encountering. Not that I need any expectations about that, since my only shameful purpose in ordering DoorDash is the food itself.
I haven't ordered DoorDash in quite awhile but I always did the "leave it at the door" option (as I also feel shameful about the purpose I'd rather not have to be face to face with the person making the delivery) so I have no idea how often this may be true. I think it explains why he might have believed a female dasher was coming though, if indeed it was on purpose.
I suspect that when it is true it's mostly because the female driver has her partner with her and sends him to the door, perhaps to avoid scenarios like the one under discussion.
You guys are being so naive about naked couch guy's motives. There are absolutely men who do stuff like this, I know women have experienced them. It is very likely he was feigning being unconscious. This is not sexual assault but it is still deliberate indecent exposure, he would have seen she was a female driver on the app. She was wrong to post things online but the police would have done nothing anyway, so what exactly is her recourse in this situation? There's a great article by Roisin Michaux about how you meet a lot more perverts when you're working class, which is a great read for all of us privileged middle class pinko liberals who really don't understand what it's actually like to move through the world as a woman in a lower socio-economic class. https://4w.pub/you-meet-more-perverts-when-poor/
It's absolutely possible that he meant to do this. The police report was the right move. The posting naked pictures of a man in his own home was not the right move, and is criminal.
The important thing to remember is that he might have meant to, or he might not have, and we are all just speculating.
Also, the police did do something when she reported it. They spoke to him, and said if it reoccurs he'll face penalties. That seems the appropriate response. What else would you like to happen?
That's a fair response from the police - I'm just not a fan of the way she is immediately branded a clout chaser and he's just a poor innocent drunk guy who happened to pass out with his dick out and his door open. This show covers so many horrendously sick fetishes like vore and gooning but suddenly it's just beyond the realms of possibility that the naked guy flashing a young lone female in a low-wage job is doing it intentionally? It gets my hackles up
I think it's fair to call her a clout chaser. Her response, given the information we have, even assuming the most generous interpretation to her, was not appropriate (and probably criminal).
He could go either way. So I understand why someone would be annoyed at the dismissal of the potential he's a bad actor, particularly if they've been a victim of similar actions themselves. (I know I get angry at Jessie for his knee jerk defense of any and all antisemtism on a similar basis).
Thank you for acknowledging what I mean. I am in principle very much against dealing with problems by posting them on the internet, for what it's worth. I just find the treatment unequal in this case and it makes me itch. Yeah, maybe she is a clout chaser, there are millions of them out there. Maybe she's also just a young working class lesbian tired of men trying to show her their dicks, who lost her judgement and composure because she feels disenfranchised by society. I feel like if we're going to entertain the notion that naked sofa guy wasn't a bad actor we should do her the same courtesy.
The public's reaction would be very different if they were hearing it from a local news station in the vein of "Local man arrested for allegedly exposing themselves to a door dasher" instead of avoiding the law enforcement altogether and allowing this supposed criminal to "attack" other women.
She was clout chasing.
She's branded a clout chaser because she posted it on the Internet.
He's branded a perv because he was lying on his couch with his pants down with the door wide open knowing someone was coming to the door. Which is worse?
Thank you for making this point. Men exposing themselves to women are not the victims ffs. I don't agree with her rush to social media but if it were me I would def take a photo or video and then share that content with the police. Otherwise there is no proof. Plus there could be a pattern of this behavior if she doesn't have proof then there's no way to establish the pattern.
But there's a world of difference between taking a picture and showing it to the police, and uploading and then reuploading and then doing it again for the world to see, BEFORE going to the police. If she had just reported to the police everything would be fine. He would be warned (as he was), there would be a record (as there is), and potentially his account would be flagged or closed. What would not have happened is there would not be non consensual nude video of this man online.
If you think people sharing non consensual nude videos is wrong, than clearly the first scenario is better. If you disagree, and think we should be able to spread porn of people against their will, then unfortunately for you, most societies disagree.
I think this is not unlikely, but I think it would be hard prove from a single instance. It possible he passed out naked, especially if he was drunk. Not to say it completely excuses the instance, but intentions matter. If this was some sort of fetish though, it would be something he does repeatedly. Eventually it will become obvious that this is no accident
No one is saying that it's impossible that he's a perv who did this intentionally.
But there's no proof that he was, it's nothing more than a possibility, while there is definitive, unequivocal evidence that she acted egregiously in multiple ways - doxing him, posting the nude video, and falsely accusing him of sexual assault. All of that is very bad.
And even if we end up learning that he actually did this for fetish reasons, and was only pretending to be asleep, that doesn't change much in my opinion. She would still be wrong, and still deserve to be in prison.
Because she would have no way of knowing that was the case, and in any case she chose to violate his privacy and make false accusations.
He was still in his own home. There's no law against being nude in your own home, or masturbating in your own home.
If she had followed his instructions and just put down the food at his door and left, she wouldn't have seen anything.
The accounts I heard are that the door was only open a crack and she pushed it open, and I'm inclined to believe that, but even if the door was wide open, that changes little. No one forced her to stare at his junk from across the room. Nothing prevented her from minding her own business.
Just do your job, put down the food and leave.
I grew up in Oswego. It’s a really economically depressed place (with a great deal of problem drinking and all of the sad things that go along with it). While it might be true that the DoorDash girl was truly upset at the sight of a naked sleeping drunk man, I agree with the theory that her motivation was not getting enough attention for being a member of the working poor…that’s just not very interesting in Central NY.
So Jesse gives Katie shit for mispronouncing ancillary and then, a few minutes later, mispronounced depravity?! Cmon son.
Katie used the correct (ie UK) pronunciation of "ancillary".
No country on earth is depraved enough to pronounce "depravity" Jesse's way
More North Americans speak English than there are English people… so…
Yeah that part was supposed to be about the "depravity"
Debatable
She also routinely pronounces "sycophantic" as "sicko-fat-ic."
if a man walked into my apartment, door open or not, took a naked photo of me passed out, and posted it to the internet multiple times, he'd be in jail. This Thankgiving this doordasher should feel thankful she doesn't have a penis.
I'm not sure which disturbs me more....the DoorDash story, the New Jersey story, or the revelation that there's people who aspire to a career in HR.
(I kinda understand the criminal charges w/r/t the video; you have an expectation of privacy *inside your home*, and the _shared_ video of him in his home was a violation of that expectation. If she'd gone to DD with the story, they'd have taken action to prevent him from using the service in the future. Yeah, he's a freak. Doesn't mean it's okay to post videos of him online....whether he consented is not something that really matters. I can't hire someone to murder me, either. Same principle...)
So if I’m understanding this correctly - unexpected dick is SA in this scenario, but totally fine and nothing to complain about if encountered in a woman’s locker room/spa etc…
Got it
Eyyy, I'm clout chasin' here!