I’m going to try to say this as respectfully as possible, but in reference to why some people would be really bothered by the Balenciaga ads (or some of the other things people are disturbed by): many of the people who are bothered by this are parents. Katie and Jesse are not parents. Neither of them have been in a parenting situation where they realized their child was genuinely at risk and felt the horror and fear of “what if,” or, even worse, had to deal with what did happen. No, most of us bothered by the ad campaign don’t think it’s going to directly inspire a person to commit a crime or that it’s a sign of a secret Hollywood p-phile cabal. We’re bothered because it reminds us that there are people in the world who do see our children this way, who don’t mind sexualizing or exploiting them, and who don’t mind playing around with themes blending p-rn and children to make money for someone. I wish Jesse and Katie would see the gray areas between the two extremes of “I don’t see why people should be this upset” and “stupid people having a moral panic destroying their Balenciaga gear on TikTok” and recognize there’s a whole range of reactions in between those two responses that can be calm, rational, and less extreme even if they still don’t agree with them.
I'm unqualified to diagnose Kanye West or anybody else (not a mental-health professional). That said, Kanye's recent behavior and remarks are very, very similar to the behavior of a relative of mine with Bipolar I. My relative, when manic, goes into grandiose conspiracy theorizing about how some entity (in his case, the CIA) is out to get him. Frankly, he doesn't sound that different from Kanye talking about the Jews.
I don't want to excuse Kanye's antisemitism. But it seems ludicrous to me that actual journalists like Josh Marshall feel qualified to say that bigoted conspiracy theorizing is NOT a hallmark of mental illness. Losing touch with reality to varying degrees is a classic symptom of multiple mental disorders, including the one that Kanye has apparently been diagnosed with! Who is served by our pretending that people in the throes of mania don't say terrible things and still require professional help? Certainly not the many less wealthy, less famous people who are similarly afflicted.
After nearly two decades of going on and off his meds, my relative finally committed to staying on his meds for the sake of his family, and he's been doing well ever since. I wish the same happy trajectory for Kanye.
Kudos to Jesse and Katie for not letting the ugliness of Kanye's remarks cloud their view of his sad condition.
During the height of Trump hysteria, I pissed off my brother (who I considered a really close friend) by saying "I don't like Kanye's music, but then I don't listen to a lot of hip-hop so I know that's not a weighty opinion." I was called racist and given a lecture about the black experience (neither of us are black) and rap culture before he stormed out of my house.
I've been laughing about that to myself for the past week or so.
Katie, Jesse, and Trace: you are in *the right timeline*, it's like J. Michael Straczynski is the showrunner of the internet all of a sudden, and you are the only people ready and able to shape it into something not-just-brain-melting. (Though also: brain-melting.)
Katie's point about how a lot of gay men used to effectively get initiated/groomed by older men when we were a less permissive society: I once had a fascinating conversation with a cab driver from the Middle East who genuinely believed you became gay *because* you had an experience as a young man with an older homosexual. (Also, it must be said: I'm gay, my 'dar is pretty good, and this cab driver...well let's just say, if I had to place a bet, I'd say he was speaking from experience.) Anyway, he was telling me how certain countries had better underground gay scenes than others. (Totally something a straight man would talk about out of nowhere, amirite?) And apropos of nothing, I want to share my favorite quote of his from our *totally unprovoked* mid-cabride "best underground gay scenes in the Middle East" conversation: "In Kuwait they are gay like they are buying a bagel!"
Milo's return to the simulation is...fascinating. What a desperate creature, and boy, has his fall from grace made it painfully apparent what a *huge* waste of time and energy it was for anyone to get so upset about him. The thing that sucks is, I have a weird soft spot for the plight of (wait for it) ex-gays. Specifically: adults who decide to take that path over time. I think it's because I was raised Catholic, and can see somebody making that choice, either because they found the gayscape nihilistic (it so can be) or because they have a real focus on by-the-letter Christianity--which I don't personally? But like, I know a gay guy who became a monk, for instance, and I don't look at ex-gays as being very different from that. (Frankly, being a monk is much more difficult! At least you get to have kids if you're an ex-gay.)
Anyway, Milo's being an ex-gay makes me angry not because he's an ex-gay but because he's ruining being an ex-gay now LOL. I'm like, "Leave the ex-gays alone! They're dealing with enough! Why don't you just become a BTS stan, FFS?!"
And finally (way too much content in this comment) this Balenciaga thing! So creepy! I obviously don't think there's a pedo conspiracy here, so much as there's a wave of pushback to a provocative advertisement. But oh man, do I get why that ad set people off, and winning a debate on the "pro Bondage Bear" side, for whatever reason you engage in it, is pretty much a loss for you.
Did anyone see that amazing movie "The Square," about the disastrous marketing campaign for an art museum? It's incredible, you should see it right now. Katie, Jesse, Trace: see it! You'll love it. It's terrifying. A cringe comedy rollercoaster.
This was honestly a great use of the BARPod format where one host is learning about the story for the first time, because we got to hear Katie's framing of the Balanciaga story repeatedly crash and burn against Jesse's reactions.
Katie: Tell me what you see.
Jesse: A toddler standing in front of a bunch of empty alcohol glasses holding a bondage bear.
Katie: No! You didn't see a bondage bear. It's obviously a goth/punk bear in a leather harness.
Jesse: (Proceeds to call it a bondage bear for the rest of the episode, calling Katie to also call it a bondage bear until she remembers and corrects herself to say punk bear)
Katie: Then they shot an office ad that included pages of a Supreme court decision that said that virtual child porn was legal, but EKTUALLY that decision was good because it said that porn with actual kids was illegal.
Jesse: That's really wierd and creepy. Why would they do that?
Katie: ...
(Me: Also, duh - I'm pretty sure toddler porn was illegal before that decision.)
Katie: Here's an ad with an unreadable diploma that weirdos think says "John Phillip Fisher," but it's unreadable.
Jesse: It looks like it says John Phillip Fisher to me.
(Me: Given that ad, I'm less inclined to believe Katie's argument that the dates in the other ad were just coincidentally associated with child porn. Also, it totally and obviously says John Phillip Fisher.)
Jesse: Are these guys deliberately trolling people concerned about child porn?
Katie: No! It's just a weird series of coincidences! Or maybe it's on purpose, but then it's just an ad campaign playing around with toddler sexuality for clicks! And there's no reason to be offended by that! Or maybe there is, but it doesn't mean there's a worldwide pedophile conspiracy!
Y’all, those are not “punk” bears. Come on. You can say people overanalyzed/freaked out over the ad if that’s how you feel but denying what is very clearly bondage gear is stupid.
The children in the ads, Kaybee. Reduced to props to fulfill somebody's idea of a "wEiRd" and "EdGY" fashion shoot, apparently.
There is a long history of exploitation of children in the modelling and entertainment industries and this illustrates that not enough has changed.
"What people are mad about are hypothetical children that, what, may get molested someday because some child abuser sees these images as like, 'cool! It's normalized now"'
Kaybee, Jaybee, I say this with love: Could you please get an actual exert on child safeguarding on to speak about this before the next time you do an episode about child abuse or "grooming"?
To me, this is pretty believable. For sure they should have had someone at least skim it, but I can totally see this just being negligence.
I sort of disagree with you guys on the bears. On the one hand, I think they could have just been trying to be edgy. But I think saying the shoot was "in poor taste" is an understatement. Honestly, the photos reminded me a lot of the Alok Vaid-Menon quote "I believe in the radical notion that little girls are complicated people. There are no fairy tales and no princesses here. Little girls are trans, queer, kinky, devious, kind, mean, beautiful, ugly, tremendous and peculiar."
The practice of adults ascribing adult-like sexuality to children is both incorrect and extremely troubling to me. I do think that some child molesters use logic like this to justify their behavior. And although the photos are obviously open to interpretation, that's how I read them.
Listening to the new episode, and wanting a thing I heard that a fan of the Advisory Opinions podcast made for that pod to become a thing for this pod: a bingo game to complete while listening to the episode https://aobingo.com
And just like that, I lost a good third of the audience who might now be googling "what is bingo?"
It looks like it's built on a WP plugin, which in my younger years I'd happily waste time putting together but I'm baking bread right now so carbs come first. https://github.com/brichards/wpbingo
Ideas for squares:
☐ Katie & Jesse go back and forth on how to pronounce a word
☐ Jesse talks about food
☐ Katie dismisses concerns about the sexualization of children as a moral panic
(Okay, not the last one... yet.)
More on topic, isn't it Bah-len-ciaga, not Bah-lawn-ciaga?
My current theory is that Jesse and Katie have a tegridy gene where they don’t want to feel bought, even by us, so in this case they have to be super edge Lordy about the Balenciaga stuff.
I don’t know if a pedophile is orchestrating all that stuff but ask yourself the following question: would you have been onto Epstein or Saville before those allegations became undeniable?
I feel like you need a normie middle-age lady to help you with some of your cultural references. If you need me for any kind of things that you haven’t heard of, a drop me a line.
Katie's take about traffic cameras was so idiotic I'm kind of speechless. Try arguing with a government bureaucrat it wasn't you and see how that goes? Trying to imagine her arguing it wasn't her in traffic court. Was she kidding?
Also just obey traffic laws and then you won't get a ticket.
Y’all, those are not “punk” bears. Come on. You can say people overanalyzed/freaked out over the ad if that’s how you feel but denying what is very clearly bondage gear isn’t cool.
I’m going to try to say this as respectfully as possible, but in reference to why some people would be really bothered by the Balenciaga ads (or some of the other things people are disturbed by): many of the people who are bothered by this are parents. Katie and Jesse are not parents. Neither of them have been in a parenting situation where they realized their child was genuinely at risk and felt the horror and fear of “what if,” or, even worse, had to deal with what did happen. No, most of us bothered by the ad campaign don’t think it’s going to directly inspire a person to commit a crime or that it’s a sign of a secret Hollywood p-phile cabal. We’re bothered because it reminds us that there are people in the world who do see our children this way, who don’t mind sexualizing or exploiting them, and who don’t mind playing around with themes blending p-rn and children to make money for someone. I wish Jesse and Katie would see the gray areas between the two extremes of “I don’t see why people should be this upset” and “stupid people having a moral panic destroying their Balenciaga gear on TikTok” and recognize there’s a whole range of reactions in between those two responses that can be calm, rational, and less extreme even if they still don’t agree with them.
I'm unqualified to diagnose Kanye West or anybody else (not a mental-health professional). That said, Kanye's recent behavior and remarks are very, very similar to the behavior of a relative of mine with Bipolar I. My relative, when manic, goes into grandiose conspiracy theorizing about how some entity (in his case, the CIA) is out to get him. Frankly, he doesn't sound that different from Kanye talking about the Jews.
I don't want to excuse Kanye's antisemitism. But it seems ludicrous to me that actual journalists like Josh Marshall feel qualified to say that bigoted conspiracy theorizing is NOT a hallmark of mental illness. Losing touch with reality to varying degrees is a classic symptom of multiple mental disorders, including the one that Kanye has apparently been diagnosed with! Who is served by our pretending that people in the throes of mania don't say terrible things and still require professional help? Certainly not the many less wealthy, less famous people who are similarly afflicted.
After nearly two decades of going on and off his meds, my relative finally committed to staying on his meds for the sake of his family, and he's been doing well ever since. I wish the same happy trajectory for Kanye.
Kudos to Jesse and Katie for not letting the ugliness of Kanye's remarks cloud their view of his sad condition.
During the height of Trump hysteria, I pissed off my brother (who I considered a really close friend) by saying "I don't like Kanye's music, but then I don't listen to a lot of hip-hop so I know that's not a weighty opinion." I was called racist and given a lecture about the black experience (neither of us are black) and rap culture before he stormed out of my house.
I've been laughing about that to myself for the past week or so.
Katie, Jesse, and Trace: you are in *the right timeline*, it's like J. Michael Straczynski is the showrunner of the internet all of a sudden, and you are the only people ready and able to shape it into something not-just-brain-melting. (Though also: brain-melting.)
Katie's point about how a lot of gay men used to effectively get initiated/groomed by older men when we were a less permissive society: I once had a fascinating conversation with a cab driver from the Middle East who genuinely believed you became gay *because* you had an experience as a young man with an older homosexual. (Also, it must be said: I'm gay, my 'dar is pretty good, and this cab driver...well let's just say, if I had to place a bet, I'd say he was speaking from experience.) Anyway, he was telling me how certain countries had better underground gay scenes than others. (Totally something a straight man would talk about out of nowhere, amirite?) And apropos of nothing, I want to share my favorite quote of his from our *totally unprovoked* mid-cabride "best underground gay scenes in the Middle East" conversation: "In Kuwait they are gay like they are buying a bagel!"
Milo's return to the simulation is...fascinating. What a desperate creature, and boy, has his fall from grace made it painfully apparent what a *huge* waste of time and energy it was for anyone to get so upset about him. The thing that sucks is, I have a weird soft spot for the plight of (wait for it) ex-gays. Specifically: adults who decide to take that path over time. I think it's because I was raised Catholic, and can see somebody making that choice, either because they found the gayscape nihilistic (it so can be) or because they have a real focus on by-the-letter Christianity--which I don't personally? But like, I know a gay guy who became a monk, for instance, and I don't look at ex-gays as being very different from that. (Frankly, being a monk is much more difficult! At least you get to have kids if you're an ex-gay.)
Anyway, Milo's being an ex-gay makes me angry not because he's an ex-gay but because he's ruining being an ex-gay now LOL. I'm like, "Leave the ex-gays alone! They're dealing with enough! Why don't you just become a BTS stan, FFS?!"
And finally (way too much content in this comment) this Balenciaga thing! So creepy! I obviously don't think there's a pedo conspiracy here, so much as there's a wave of pushback to a provocative advertisement. But oh man, do I get why that ad set people off, and winning a debate on the "pro Bondage Bear" side, for whatever reason you engage in it, is pretty much a loss for you.
Did anyone see that amazing movie "The Square," about the disastrous marketing campaign for an art museum? It's incredible, you should see it right now. Katie, Jesse, Trace: see it! You'll love it. It's terrifying. A cringe comedy rollercoaster.
I find this whole century so far very confusing.
It just keeps getting weirder.
This was honestly a great use of the BARPod format where one host is learning about the story for the first time, because we got to hear Katie's framing of the Balanciaga story repeatedly crash and burn against Jesse's reactions.
Katie: Tell me what you see.
Jesse: A toddler standing in front of a bunch of empty alcohol glasses holding a bondage bear.
Katie: No! You didn't see a bondage bear. It's obviously a goth/punk bear in a leather harness.
Jesse: (Proceeds to call it a bondage bear for the rest of the episode, calling Katie to also call it a bondage bear until she remembers and corrects herself to say punk bear)
Katie: Then they shot an office ad that included pages of a Supreme court decision that said that virtual child porn was legal, but EKTUALLY that decision was good because it said that porn with actual kids was illegal.
Jesse: That's really wierd and creepy. Why would they do that?
Katie: ...
(Me: Also, duh - I'm pretty sure toddler porn was illegal before that decision.)
Katie: Here's an ad with an unreadable diploma that weirdos think says "John Phillip Fisher," but it's unreadable.
Jesse: It looks like it says John Phillip Fisher to me.
(Me: Given that ad, I'm less inclined to believe Katie's argument that the dates in the other ad were just coincidentally associated with child porn. Also, it totally and obviously says John Phillip Fisher.)
Jesse: Are these guys deliberately trolling people concerned about child porn?
Katie: No! It's just a weird series of coincidences! Or maybe it's on purpose, but then it's just an ad campaign playing around with toddler sexuality for clicks! And there's no reason to be offended by that! Or maybe there is, but it doesn't mean there's a worldwide pedophile conspiracy!
Y’all, those are not “punk” bears. Come on. You can say people overanalyzed/freaked out over the ad if that’s how you feel but denying what is very clearly bondage gear is stupid.
"We don't have a single actual victim here"
The children in the ads, Kaybee. Reduced to props to fulfill somebody's idea of a "wEiRd" and "EdGY" fashion shoot, apparently.
There is a long history of exploitation of children in the modelling and entertainment industries and this illustrates that not enough has changed.
"What people are mad about are hypothetical children that, what, may get molested someday because some child abuser sees these images as like, 'cool! It's normalized now"'
Kaybee, Jaybee, I say this with love: Could you please get an actual exert on child safeguarding on to speak about this before the next time you do an episode about child abuse or "grooming"?
I'm surprised you guys didn't include Balenciaga's "official" response to the paperwork that was included:
"All the items included in this shooting were provided by third parties that confirmed in writing that these props were fake office documents. They turned out to be real legal papers most likely coming from the filming of a television drama." (https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.cnn.com/style/amp/balenciaga-lawsuit-controversial-campaign/index.html)
To me, this is pretty believable. For sure they should have had someone at least skim it, but I can totally see this just being negligence.
I sort of disagree with you guys on the bears. On the one hand, I think they could have just been trying to be edgy. But I think saying the shoot was "in poor taste" is an understatement. Honestly, the photos reminded me a lot of the Alok Vaid-Menon quote "I believe in the radical notion that little girls are complicated people. There are no fairy tales and no princesses here. Little girls are trans, queer, kinky, devious, kind, mean, beautiful, ugly, tremendous and peculiar."
The practice of adults ascribing adult-like sexuality to children is both incorrect and extremely troubling to me. I do think that some child molesters use logic like this to justify their behavior. And although the photos are obviously open to interpretation, that's how I read them.
Listening to the new episode, and wanting a thing I heard that a fan of the Advisory Opinions podcast made for that pod to become a thing for this pod: a bingo game to complete while listening to the episode https://aobingo.com
And just like that, I lost a good third of the audience who might now be googling "what is bingo?"
It looks like it's built on a WP plugin, which in my younger years I'd happily waste time putting together but I'm baking bread right now so carbs come first. https://github.com/brichards/wpbingo
Ideas for squares:
☐ Katie & Jesse go back and forth on how to pronounce a word
☐ Jesse talks about food
☐ Katie dismisses concerns about the sexualization of children as a moral panic
(Okay, not the last one... yet.)
More on topic, isn't it Bah-len-ciaga, not Bah-lawn-ciaga?
Yet another current day controversy which has some links back to gamergate.
When are we getting the 12-part GG special?
My current theory is that Jesse and Katie have a tegridy gene where they don’t want to feel bought, even by us, so in this case they have to be super edge Lordy about the Balenciaga stuff.
I don’t know if a pedophile is orchestrating all that stuff but ask yourself the following question: would you have been onto Epstein or Saville before those allegations became undeniable?
People who want to fuck kids do weird shit.
I feel like you need a normie middle-age lady to help you with some of your cultural references. If you need me for any kind of things that you haven’t heard of, a drop me a line.
Katie, just stop a the goddamned red light. And I think in most jurisdictions the vehicle owner is responsible no matter who is driving.
Katie's take about traffic cameras was so idiotic I'm kind of speechless. Try arguing with a government bureaucrat it wasn't you and see how that goes? Trying to imagine her arguing it wasn't her in traffic court. Was she kidding?
Also just obey traffic laws and then you won't get a ticket.
Y’all, those are not “punk” bears. Come on. You can say people overanalyzed/freaked out over the ad if that’s how you feel but denying what is very clearly bondage gear isn’t cool.