I need to find references to this, but my recollection is that Ray Blanchard's original diagnoses of "Gender Identity Disorder" and "Autogynephilia" were lobbied to include "gender dysphoria" Gender dysphoria was a term originally coined by Harry Benjamin who founded the "Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association" (what bโฆ
I need to find references to this, but my recollection is that Ray Blanchard's original diagnoses of "Gender Identity Disorder" and "Autogynephilia" were lobbied to include "gender dysphoria" Gender dysphoria was a term originally coined by Harry Benjamin who founded the "Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association" (what became WPATH).
It's possible to argue gender dysphoria isn't real. (Usually boys) have been known to have an identity disorder where they literally believe they are the opposite sex. It's almost always homosexual boys and usually revealed to be predicated by trauma at an early age.
I've come to understand gender dysphoria as simply being gender-related distress. This definition demystifies it while not completely dismissing it. It can be unbearably painful just like other kinds of body dysmorphia and self image issues. The cause and solution of these issues though are almost always psychosocial, not physical.
Yeah, liberal feminism really got lost and diverted from โabandon gender roles!โ to โgender roles are so rigid that EVERYONE is an egg โค๏ธโ.
Jesse talked about this at the end of the episode, and I canโt help but feel like a lot of the loud internet trans women are living out a drag dream and fetish of womanhood... I was so shocked by the popularity if โDetransition, Babyโ for this purpose
`loud internet trans women are living out a drag dream and fetish of womanhood'
I can't speak to other's motivations but please remember that there are non-loud trans women, some who are online, who transitioned to relieve gender dysphoria and are genuinely just interested in `blending in' as women.
Also, unfortunately some trans women haven't quite realized something that young women learn: just because an article of clothing looks pretty/cute does not mean that it will look good on you. A certain reluctance to offer constructive criticism in the community probably allows this non-realization to go on for too long.
You really need to be saying this to the loud โgender positiveโ people too. Backlash sucks, but itโs 100% predictable and 100% normal human behavior. The loud internet trans people bear some direct responsibility for the difficulties the just-trying-to-pass-and-be-left-alone trans folks are having.
The fact that nobody saw any downsides to picking the *person who went to jail for kidnapping and torturing somebody and then tried to self-castrate in some sort of apparent mental break* as the literal spokesperson for a trans rights rally is... not good.
I don't understand how we're supposed to keep saying 'well surely this community just wants to get along with their lives like all the others' when this is like the 1000th time some crazy creep has called for violence in front of a cheering crowd. A monstrosity managed to get the 'Day of Vengeance' canceled, and even on that day a sitting state governor had to fire her communications rep for posting in support of TRA violence. There's got to be a very real community issue afoot. The redirection to the normal, non-activist crowd isn't going to mask that.
I don't have the answers, shoot if I did I'd fix feminist activism tomorrow because we have MANY internal problems. I just don't get why we're supposed to pretend everything is fine in the trans community when it's obvious there are multiple radical extremists within them and in support of them. I often fear it absolutely will go too far one day and tbh that's the base of my concern.
Has anyone seen a civil rights movement move like this? I'm genuinely curious because obviously some did use fear as a tactic. I'm just very skeptical that my fear of an eventual tragedy carried out to 'stop trans genocide' is coming from transphobia or a warped perspective.
Good points. I have never seen a civil rights movement at all like this. It makes you think it is an underground right wing movement posing as trans that wants to utterly disgrace the trans rights movement in order to move normies to the right. If that is so, it is working.
I wish it was just checkers like that smh. I genuinely believe this has happened organically. The LGBTQ lobby was wildly successful in turning the tide of public opinion as well as policy in just 50 or so years. I don't see how the right could honestly mess that up for them.
If I had to guess what has happened it would be a horrible mix of the internet and becoming victims of their own success. I've brought up before something journalist Batya Ungar-Sargon brilliantly observed: during the George Floyd days the media and the loudest social justice advocates tried to employ this overly radical style of politics onto Black people, but we're a much larger coalition with millions of genuine social conservatives, plus the slow and uneven pace of our civil rights successes (as compared to other groups) makes us skeptical of the idea that we'll just bully folks into say, supporting reparations.
I also think social justice politics for every group has gotten outta hand and everyone's trying to quell the radicals, not just them. But because so many people understood the consequences for even the slightest anti-queer sentiment were high, you either had folks completely tap out of their politics or support them uncritically. Hence why, as Jesse explained, nobody can just say that the calls for violence, platforming of misogynists, and sexual assault threats are uncalled for. They have to say 'yes this TRA threatened to slit TERF throats but TERFs are violent too.' They've made it to where queer folks cannot be criticized meaningfully because of their success in explaining the genuine challenges of LGBTQ life.
One of them absolutely will take this too far, which is why I've given this topic a lot of thought. Femicide is looked often over enough and I get so enraged when I realize that in this hypothetical case liberal women will justify it 100%. I just want a meaningful pushback online from these normal trans folks who are supposedly far outnumbering the mentally ill radicals. That doesn't mean I'm holding any one person responsible, I'm just not entertaining this idea that they don't approve of their representation when it's only Buck and Blair calling from inside the house.
`You really need to be saying this to the loud โgender positiveโ people too.'
Do you think they're going to listen to me? About all that I feel I can do is present a different view here.
The pick was poor, in retrospect, but she is an advocate for a (potentially?) important population of untreated trans people. I don't know the statistics/situation of un-treated trans people in jail in the UK, which is why I say potential, and I'm of course discounting those who seek gender reassignment simply to be moved from the men's prison to women's prison (I believe the recently transitioned should have to live as the new gender for one to two years before transfer).
I try not to be too judgmental about the self-castration act because of personal experience with the pain that gender dysphoria brings. It can be unrelenting and the fact that the testes are producing a male hormone would only add to the distress. I'm assuming she was not granted legitimate treatment, e.g., hormones, and her desire to transition is genuine.
Or maybe I'm just trying to be understanding to the point of naivite? In any case, her statement was despicable.
I guess Iโm just saying that if these people will listen to anybody, itโs more likely to be an โallyโ rather than an โenemyโ. I am very much in favor of promoting internal skepticism / contrarianism within a movement, which is exactly why I support people like Jesse and Katie despite disagreeing with them on a lot of things politically.
I would hardly knock you for providing a gender-dysphoric perspective here - thatโs valuable and important! Iโm just increasingly frustrated by how often people within a group/movement who could provide valuable constructive criticism feel unable to voice these concerns except outside the group.
"Or maybe I'm just trying to be understanding to the point of naivite?"
Bingo.
To borrow a religious phrase, they are your "brothers and sisters in Christ". Yes, Virginia, it is your responsibility. Your silence gives them power and indulgence.
"I can't speak to other's motivations but please remember that there are non-loud trans women, some who are online, who transitioned to relieve gender dysphoria and are genuinely just interested in `blending in' as women."
I think this is an important point.
I have known a number of activists (although not for trans rights) and they are loud, opinionated, and fearless. They often act like assholes, and they often do not represent the bulk of the people who agree with their position, at least in general. I have no reason to think that trans rights activists are any more or less representative of average trans folks. So, as vexing as I find these gender issues, I try to remind myself that most trans people probably don't buy a lot of the crazier stuff, either.
I donโt think the commenter was ascribing those views to Blanchard et al, just expressing their own.
I think the evidence is so mixed as to make it hard to say for sure that any individual benefits. Although it at least seems some donโt suffer large downsides in the 10-20 year term either. But evidence of very large benefits even for a subset of recipients is not apparent, whereas very large costs to another subset definitely are. And as one might imagine those costs are larger with the more invasive interventions. So Iโm not convinced medical interventions should be on the table and certainly not as first-line approaches.
Autogynephiles have gender dysphoria, too. Ray Blanchard's entire reason for creating his typology was that both types were exhibiting dysphoria and seeking surgery but he thought only one would benefit from it. Anne Lawrence (who interviewed hundreds of AGPs) said they had worse dysphoria than gay men, because gay men aren't interested in vaginas, so they're not as invested in having them--it's more about trying to date straight men for them. Note that in many countries gay transsexuals don't bother to get surgery.
I was married to an autogynephile, and I watched him acquire and exhibit gender dysphoria. I would argue it is pretty indistinguishable from body dysmorphia, for what it's worth. I believe more and more types of cohorts are acquiring it.
ya im fairly comfortable saying i donโt believe in gender dysphoria, as a stand-alone medical condition anyway. obviously most cognitive distress is subjective and everyone is going to describe their own symptoms in different ways using the language thatโs available to them at the time.
discomfort in oneโs body can be attributed to lots of things e.g. depression, anxiety, EATING DISORDERS, other types of personality and identity disturbances etc. female puberty is generally understood to be traumatic as it is, so itโs not really a surprise that girls are now trying to opt out of it in droves. unless jesse and katie can come up with a compelling reason why โgender dysphoriaโ isnโt just a new word for well known symptoms of other mental health issues mixed in with a bit of old timey sex stereotyping, i feel like they should stop scoffing at the โsmall minorityโ (?) of people who arenโt really buying the concept
I need to find references to this, but my recollection is that Ray Blanchard's original diagnoses of "Gender Identity Disorder" and "Autogynephilia" were lobbied to include "gender dysphoria" Gender dysphoria was a term originally coined by Harry Benjamin who founded the "Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association" (what became WPATH).
It's possible to argue gender dysphoria isn't real. (Usually boys) have been known to have an identity disorder where they literally believe they are the opposite sex. It's almost always homosexual boys and usually revealed to be predicated by trauma at an early age.
I'll get some references when I'm not at work.
I've come to understand gender dysphoria as simply being gender-related distress. This definition demystifies it while not completely dismissing it. It can be unbearably painful just like other kinds of body dysmorphia and self image issues. The cause and solution of these issues though are almost always psychosocial, not physical.
Yeah, liberal feminism really got lost and diverted from โabandon gender roles!โ to โgender roles are so rigid that EVERYONE is an egg โค๏ธโ.
Jesse talked about this at the end of the episode, and I canโt help but feel like a lot of the loud internet trans women are living out a drag dream and fetish of womanhood... I was so shocked by the popularity if โDetransition, Babyโ for this purpose
`loud internet trans women are living out a drag dream and fetish of womanhood'
I can't speak to other's motivations but please remember that there are non-loud trans women, some who are online, who transitioned to relieve gender dysphoria and are genuinely just interested in `blending in' as women.
Also, unfortunately some trans women haven't quite realized something that young women learn: just because an article of clothing looks pretty/cute does not mean that it will look good on you. A certain reluctance to offer constructive criticism in the community probably allows this non-realization to go on for too long.
You really need to be saying this to the loud โgender positiveโ people too. Backlash sucks, but itโs 100% predictable and 100% normal human behavior. The loud internet trans people bear some direct responsibility for the difficulties the just-trying-to-pass-and-be-left-alone trans folks are having.
The fact that nobody saw any downsides to picking the *person who went to jail for kidnapping and torturing somebody and then tried to self-castrate in some sort of apparent mental break* as the literal spokesperson for a trans rights rally is... not good.
I don't understand how we're supposed to keep saying 'well surely this community just wants to get along with their lives like all the others' when this is like the 1000th time some crazy creep has called for violence in front of a cheering crowd. A monstrosity managed to get the 'Day of Vengeance' canceled, and even on that day a sitting state governor had to fire her communications rep for posting in support of TRA violence. There's got to be a very real community issue afoot. The redirection to the normal, non-activist crowd isn't going to mask that.
I don't have the answers, shoot if I did I'd fix feminist activism tomorrow because we have MANY internal problems. I just don't get why we're supposed to pretend everything is fine in the trans community when it's obvious there are multiple radical extremists within them and in support of them. I often fear it absolutely will go too far one day and tbh that's the base of my concern.
Has anyone seen a civil rights movement move like this? I'm genuinely curious because obviously some did use fear as a tactic. I'm just very skeptical that my fear of an eventual tragedy carried out to 'stop trans genocide' is coming from transphobia or a warped perspective.
Good points. I have never seen a civil rights movement at all like this. It makes you think it is an underground right wing movement posing as trans that wants to utterly disgrace the trans rights movement in order to move normies to the right. If that is so, it is working.
I wish it was just checkers like that smh. I genuinely believe this has happened organically. The LGBTQ lobby was wildly successful in turning the tide of public opinion as well as policy in just 50 or so years. I don't see how the right could honestly mess that up for them.
If I had to guess what has happened it would be a horrible mix of the internet and becoming victims of their own success. I've brought up before something journalist Batya Ungar-Sargon brilliantly observed: during the George Floyd days the media and the loudest social justice advocates tried to employ this overly radical style of politics onto Black people, but we're a much larger coalition with millions of genuine social conservatives, plus the slow and uneven pace of our civil rights successes (as compared to other groups) makes us skeptical of the idea that we'll just bully folks into say, supporting reparations.
I also think social justice politics for every group has gotten outta hand and everyone's trying to quell the radicals, not just them. But because so many people understood the consequences for even the slightest anti-queer sentiment were high, you either had folks completely tap out of their politics or support them uncritically. Hence why, as Jesse explained, nobody can just say that the calls for violence, platforming of misogynists, and sexual assault threats are uncalled for. They have to say 'yes this TRA threatened to slit TERF throats but TERFs are violent too.' They've made it to where queer folks cannot be criticized meaningfully because of their success in explaining the genuine challenges of LGBTQ life.
One of them absolutely will take this too far, which is why I've given this topic a lot of thought. Femicide is looked often over enough and I get so enraged when I realize that in this hypothetical case liberal women will justify it 100%. I just want a meaningful pushback online from these normal trans folks who are supposedly far outnumbering the mentally ill radicals. That doesn't mean I'm holding any one person responsible, I'm just not entertaining this idea that they don't approve of their representation when it's only Buck and Blair calling from inside the house.
You make many great points. But the progress starting from over 50 years ago was fought by the G and L. The BTQA++ showed up afterwards.
`You really need to be saying this to the loud โgender positiveโ people too.'
Do you think they're going to listen to me? About all that I feel I can do is present a different view here.
The pick was poor, in retrospect, but she is an advocate for a (potentially?) important population of untreated trans people. I don't know the statistics/situation of un-treated trans people in jail in the UK, which is why I say potential, and I'm of course discounting those who seek gender reassignment simply to be moved from the men's prison to women's prison (I believe the recently transitioned should have to live as the new gender for one to two years before transfer).
I try not to be too judgmental about the self-castration act because of personal experience with the pain that gender dysphoria brings. It can be unrelenting and the fact that the testes are producing a male hormone would only add to the distress. I'm assuming she was not granted legitimate treatment, e.g., hormones, and her desire to transition is genuine.
Or maybe I'm just trying to be understanding to the point of naivite? In any case, her statement was despicable.
I guess Iโm just saying that if these people will listen to anybody, itโs more likely to be an โallyโ rather than an โenemyโ. I am very much in favor of promoting internal skepticism / contrarianism within a movement, which is exactly why I support people like Jesse and Katie despite disagreeing with them on a lot of things politically.
I would hardly knock you for providing a gender-dysphoric perspective here - thatโs valuable and important! Iโm just increasingly frustrated by how often people within a group/movement who could provide valuable constructive criticism feel unable to voice these concerns except outside the group.
"Or maybe I'm just trying to be understanding to the point of naivite?"
Bingo.
To borrow a religious phrase, they are your "brothers and sisters in Christ". Yes, Virginia, it is your responsibility. Your silence gives them power and indulgence.
"just because an article of clothing looks pretty/cute does not mean that it will look good on you."
Yes indeed. This is what 7th grade was for. All those mean girls made life hell, but you did learn which outfits really did make your ass look fat.
"I can't speak to other's motivations but please remember that there are non-loud trans women, some who are online, who transitioned to relieve gender dysphoria and are genuinely just interested in `blending in' as women."
I think this is an important point.
I have known a number of activists (although not for trans rights) and they are loud, opinionated, and fearless. They often act like assholes, and they often do not represent the bulk of the people who agree with their position, at least in general. I have no reason to think that trans rights activists are any more or less representative of average trans folks. So, as vexing as I find these gender issues, I try to remind myself that most trans people probably don't buy a lot of the crazier stuff, either.
The non-loud trans women are letting the loud trans women get away with their bullshit. Because it's useful to them.
There's no reason to give them sympathy or consideration.
`The cause and solution of these issues though are almost always psychosocial, not physical.'
Blanchard, Zucker, Bailey all acknowledge that some people do benefit from physical treatments.
I donโt think the commenter was ascribing those views to Blanchard et al, just expressing their own.
I think the evidence is so mixed as to make it hard to say for sure that any individual benefits. Although it at least seems some donโt suffer large downsides in the 10-20 year term either. But evidence of very large benefits even for a subset of recipients is not apparent, whereas very large costs to another subset definitely are. And as one might imagine those costs are larger with the more invasive interventions. So Iโm not convinced medical interventions should be on the table and certainly not as first-line approaches.
Autogynephiles have gender dysphoria, too. Ray Blanchard's entire reason for creating his typology was that both types were exhibiting dysphoria and seeking surgery but he thought only one would benefit from it. Anne Lawrence (who interviewed hundreds of AGPs) said they had worse dysphoria than gay men, because gay men aren't interested in vaginas, so they're not as invested in having them--it's more about trying to date straight men for them. Note that in many countries gay transsexuals don't bother to get surgery.
I was married to an autogynephile, and I watched him acquire and exhibit gender dysphoria. I would argue it is pretty indistinguishable from body dysmorphia, for what it's worth. I believe more and more types of cohorts are acquiring it.
ya im fairly comfortable saying i donโt believe in gender dysphoria, as a stand-alone medical condition anyway. obviously most cognitive distress is subjective and everyone is going to describe their own symptoms in different ways using the language thatโs available to them at the time.
discomfort in oneโs body can be attributed to lots of things e.g. depression, anxiety, EATING DISORDERS, other types of personality and identity disturbances etc. female puberty is generally understood to be traumatic as it is, so itโs not really a surprise that girls are now trying to opt out of it in droves. unless jesse and katie can come up with a compelling reason why โgender dysphoriaโ isnโt just a new word for well known symptoms of other mental health issues mixed in with a bit of old timey sex stereotyping, i feel like they should stop scoffing at the โsmall minorityโ (?) of people who arenโt really buying the concept