Hello from TERF island. Yes, some people do go to jail for not paying their TV license fee - that is if they fail to pay the fine. It’s actually a criminal matter, which is really weird. You can’t even watch TV catch up services on the Internet without a license fee. But you can watch Netflix and Amazon Prime, so they are looking to chan…
Hello from TERF island. Yes, some people do go to jail for not paying their TV license fee - that is if they fail to pay the fine. It’s actually a criminal matter, which is really weird. You can’t even watch TV catch up services on the Internet without a license fee. But you can watch Netflix and Amazon Prime, so they are looking to change the system to an Internet tax.
Also, on the matter of trans kids. Yeah sure, there are kids who trans-identify or even adopt a transgender presentation. But the whole concept of “trans kids” is a dangerous one, because it implies that there is this group of people who are intrinsically “trans kids” and need campaigners to protect their rights (to transition).
That’s why so many people like me say that there is no such thing as a trans kid. not because anyone is denying the existence of transgender identity or gender dysphoria among children.
Prior to 2015(?) children were not asking to be recognized as the opposite sex, or demand a name or pronoun change.
Anyone born before 1990 will tell you not a single person from their school used opposite sex pronouns-- and I will speak anecdotally, but not a single person I ever went to school with took their own life because their “gender” wasn’t affirmed.
I know more people who died of suicide during lockdowns (2) then I know people who died because of trans-a-mania (0). But of course everyones dying on the minuscule and pointless Trans rights hill as opposed to the fundamental right to just you know, life your life and not have your Church/Business closed by government fiat.
Thank you! I Agree, and the handling of this point on the pod really bothered me. If you are talking about pre-pubertal kids in particular, they are at most “pre-trans.” But since there’s not way to distinguish the kids with gender dysphoria in childhood who persist into adulthood from the majority who do not (many of whom are likely to be gay), the social construct of the trans kid seems downright harmful to me.
It also seems odd to equate having gender dysphoria with being trans, and I was shocked to hear Jesse (of all people) make this connection. Not only do many kids grow out of it, we also have a massive cohort of detransitioners who were convinced (for many years in some cases) that transition was right for them. Many of these did obviously suffer from some form of gender dysphoria at some point.
As someone who used to be super onboard with the trans stuff (since long before the whole framing of the subject changed into something else entirely), I’m still open to the idea that transition may be the right choice for a select few individuals. I’m less sure that there is such a thing as “true trans” anymore. My idea of trans remains the old-school transsexual who has undergone some kind of treatment. Whether they are actually “in the wrong” body in any real sense seems increasingly unlikely to me, but is also irrelevant to my acceptance of those people who’ve decided to transition. I don’t think such an explanation is needed at all.
I still think saying "no trans kids" is unhelpful. Wouldn't it be better to be clear and say "this is a population containing a mixture of kids, only some of which will transition as adults, and studies show it's impossible to tell which?"
But how is “trans kids” an appropriate label for these kids? It’s better to refer to them as gender dysphoric kids. That describes their current state. The label “trans” (at least in our current discourse) presumes an essentialist quality.
I agree, it's not useful to call the whole group trans kids. Gender dysphoric kids, or even some more generic term for kids who aren't dysphoric like gender expansive or whatever is better, since it leaves the door open to many outcomes.
My point is that saying "there are no trans kids" or "there is no such thing as a trans kid" is un helpful since to most people's ears it sounds like you're saying adult trans people don't exist (since at one point before they transitioned they would tell you that they were a "trans kid").
ETA: I've always been of the opinion that it could be better to talk about transition as something you do instead of something a person inherently is. So, actually, someone could be said to be "a trans kid" if they have undergone social and/or medical transition. Does this mean they will grow up to be happy about that? No. People who have since detransitioned or desisted were trans at some point, and at that point just "as genuinely trans" as someone who never desisted but was as far along in the process.
The TV licence thing is the reason why British TV is so good. I don’t have a problem with it in principle, but because the BBC is so biased against Israel, and won’t release the Balen Report, I don’t particularly want to give them my money.
Not just TV - it also pays for national and local radio, educational programmes for schools and revision materials (when the schools were closed for Covid they put together a whole TV channel of curriculum-based programming within about 2 weeks, to help with home schooling), a couple of orchestras and choirs, The Proms, and a whole bunch of talent-development programmes and technology innovation projects. That innovation arm has done incredible stuff - they invented streaming television with the Iplayer.
It’s easily the best-value cultural investment anyone makes, anywhere.
Kids don’t have the maturity, knowledge, or perspective to say they were somehow born in the “wrong” body. That’s a metaphysical claim, not a scientific one. I’m deeply skeptical of metaphysical claims in general (things like the soul, the afterlife, fate, and so on) when I hear them from adults. I definitely am not trusting kids on that.
It just seems like with that statement that you are saying "there are no children who if left alone will grow up to become adults who will transition and be happy with it for the rest of their lives".
Is that what you mean? If it's not what you mean I guess I feel it's misleading. Most people think a "trans kid" is just that - someone who will ultimately grow up to be a trans adult. If it is what you mean it seems a bit delusional given the existence of adult trans people, so I think that most people assume that's what you mean and treat it accordingly...
I'd like to respond to what you wrote above in response to Christine. Yes there may be children who have gone through some kind of physical transition, which I consider to mean that they are victims of medical abuse. What do we call such children? Since there is such a danger that the term "trans kid" validates an essentialist view (which you say you reject), a better term would be trans-medicalised kid, or socially transitioned kid. Best to use terminology which describes what has happened to the child, rather than validating this essentialist nonsense that they were born with the body of one sex and the soul of the other. Language really does matter.
Is it possible that some children may find when they grow up that becoming trans is the best path for them. Sure that is possible. Let them make that choice as adults, preferably not before age 25. Then if they transition, they will become trans.
It's always worth remembering that the push to use puberty blockers on gender-dysphoric kids was inspired by a desire to help them pass better as adults. So purely aesthetic and social. Not medical at all.
Hello from TERF island. Yes, some people do go to jail for not paying their TV license fee - that is if they fail to pay the fine. It’s actually a criminal matter, which is really weird. You can’t even watch TV catch up services on the Internet without a license fee. But you can watch Netflix and Amazon Prime, so they are looking to change the system to an Internet tax.
Also, on the matter of trans kids. Yeah sure, there are kids who trans-identify or even adopt a transgender presentation. But the whole concept of “trans kids” is a dangerous one, because it implies that there is this group of people who are intrinsically “trans kids” and need campaigners to protect their rights (to transition).
That’s why so many people like me say that there is no such thing as a trans kid. not because anyone is denying the existence of transgender identity or gender dysphoria among children.
I'm also a TERF Islander and came here to say almost exactly this about "trans kids". Thank you.
Exactly.
Prior to 2015(?) children were not asking to be recognized as the opposite sex, or demand a name or pronoun change.
Anyone born before 1990 will tell you not a single person from their school used opposite sex pronouns-- and I will speak anecdotally, but not a single person I ever went to school with took their own life because their “gender” wasn’t affirmed.
I know more people who died of suicide during lockdowns (2) then I know people who died because of trans-a-mania (0). But of course everyones dying on the minuscule and pointless Trans rights hill as opposed to the fundamental right to just you know, life your life and not have your Church/Business closed by government fiat.
Thank you! I Agree, and the handling of this point on the pod really bothered me. If you are talking about pre-pubertal kids in particular, they are at most “pre-trans.” But since there’s not way to distinguish the kids with gender dysphoria in childhood who persist into adulthood from the majority who do not (many of whom are likely to be gay), the social construct of the trans kid seems downright harmful to me.
It also seems odd to equate having gender dysphoria with being trans, and I was shocked to hear Jesse (of all people) make this connection. Not only do many kids grow out of it, we also have a massive cohort of detransitioners who were convinced (for many years in some cases) that transition was right for them. Many of these did obviously suffer from some form of gender dysphoria at some point.
As someone who used to be super onboard with the trans stuff (since long before the whole framing of the subject changed into something else entirely), I’m still open to the idea that transition may be the right choice for a select few individuals. I’m less sure that there is such a thing as “true trans” anymore. My idea of trans remains the old-school transsexual who has undergone some kind of treatment. Whether they are actually “in the wrong” body in any real sense seems increasingly unlikely to me, but is also irrelevant to my acceptance of those people who’ve decided to transition. I don’t think such an explanation is needed at all.
I still think saying "no trans kids" is unhelpful. Wouldn't it be better to be clear and say "this is a population containing a mixture of kids, only some of which will transition as adults, and studies show it's impossible to tell which?"
But how is “trans kids” an appropriate label for these kids? It’s better to refer to them as gender dysphoric kids. That describes their current state. The label “trans” (at least in our current discourse) presumes an essentialist quality.
I agree, it's not useful to call the whole group trans kids. Gender dysphoric kids, or even some more generic term for kids who aren't dysphoric like gender expansive or whatever is better, since it leaves the door open to many outcomes.
My point is that saying "there are no trans kids" or "there is no such thing as a trans kid" is un helpful since to most people's ears it sounds like you're saying adult trans people don't exist (since at one point before they transitioned they would tell you that they were a "trans kid").
ETA: I've always been of the opinion that it could be better to talk about transition as something you do instead of something a person inherently is. So, actually, someone could be said to be "a trans kid" if they have undergone social and/or medical transition. Does this mean they will grow up to be happy about that? No. People who have since detransitioned or desisted were trans at some point, and at that point just "as genuinely trans" as someone who never desisted but was as far along in the process.
well said
This TV-license-jail thing is wild. I have a lot of Brit co-workers and plan to ask them about it in our social meeting next week.
The TV licence thing is the reason why British TV is so good. I don’t have a problem with it in principle, but because the BBC is so biased against Israel, and won’t release the Balen Report, I don’t particularly want to give them my money.
Not just TV - it also pays for national and local radio, educational programmes for schools and revision materials (when the schools were closed for Covid they put together a whole TV channel of curriculum-based programming within about 2 weeks, to help with home schooling), a couple of orchestras and choirs, The Proms, and a whole bunch of talent-development programmes and technology innovation projects. That innovation arm has done incredible stuff - they invented streaming television with the Iplayer.
It’s easily the best-value cultural investment anyone makes, anywhere.
I might have missed it, but I don't think the hosts mentioned the fact that the BBC is a governmental institution (unlike PBS). Big difference.
Kids don’t have the maturity, knowledge, or perspective to say they were somehow born in the “wrong” body. That’s a metaphysical claim, not a scientific one. I’m deeply skeptical of metaphysical claims in general (things like the soul, the afterlife, fate, and so on) when I hear them from adults. I definitely am not trusting kids on that.
It just seems like with that statement that you are saying "there are no children who if left alone will grow up to become adults who will transition and be happy with it for the rest of their lives".
Is that what you mean? If it's not what you mean I guess I feel it's misleading. Most people think a "trans kid" is just that - someone who will ultimately grow up to be a trans adult. If it is what you mean it seems a bit delusional given the existence of adult trans people, so I think that most people assume that's what you mean and treat it accordingly...
I'd like to respond to what you wrote above in response to Christine. Yes there may be children who have gone through some kind of physical transition, which I consider to mean that they are victims of medical abuse. What do we call such children? Since there is such a danger that the term "trans kid" validates an essentialist view (which you say you reject), a better term would be trans-medicalised kid, or socially transitioned kid. Best to use terminology which describes what has happened to the child, rather than validating this essentialist nonsense that they were born with the body of one sex and the soul of the other. Language really does matter.
Is it possible that some children may find when they grow up that becoming trans is the best path for them. Sure that is possible. Let them make that choice as adults, preferably not before age 25. Then if they transition, they will become trans.
No one is born trans.
It's always worth remembering that the push to use puberty blockers on gender-dysphoric kids was inspired by a desire to help them pass better as adults. So purely aesthetic and social. Not medical at all.