“The #1 breed requirement of our dogs is to be non-violent so every time they are violent they can’t be our breed” is some No True Scotsman nonsense that epitomizes the pitbull apologist mindset. Every attack is an exception, but every peaceful dog anecdote is the rule.
I’m a AKC dog breeder, and while I am not in the Bull or terrier world, it’s insulting that people think the demeanor of dogs can be changed in such a short period of time. It takes dozens of generations and careful crossings to breed out unwanted traits and refine them.
First off, what kind of dog? (Because, you know, dogs). Secondly, while I admire that someone would try and breed aggression out of them, you’re right, it’s going to take some time to get there. (And I suspect it will also come with some significant changes in physical characteristics associated with more docile breeds—less muscle, rounder bodies, etc.)
Cavalier King Charles spaniels! Unfortunately yes, it would take time and you are correct in that a lot of physical traits would follow the changing of the personality. If you’re interested in what cross breeding to change even minor characteristics would be like, look into LUA Dalmatians, or the Backcross project. This was to change ONE trait in Dalmatians by crossing them with a pointer, and it took 40 years for the kennel club to accept the stock. While that’s very much (lower case)political, It’s daunting to think what a project would look like for a class of dogs to essentially be bred to reject the original purpose of the breed.
It’s a breed plagued with a lot of health issues. People don’t seem to care about it as much because spaniels don’t outwardly look as deformed as pugs do.
OK but the AKC is a bit deranged in this department. Like the guy with huskies from Siberia but no, they couldn't be registered as Siberian Huskies. The Basenji folks managed it somehow. In general I'm not impressed with what happens to AKC breeds. I wasn't glad to see Beaucerons become an AKC breed.
Retrievers innately know how to retrieve, pointers point fresh outta the womb, herding dogs herd people and other critters, sled dogs love to pull shit, fighting dogs... are very sweet and don't do anything, what are you talking about?!
It’s weird, too, like breeding a panda with a taste for toddlers. It seems to me that you’d have a reason for doing this but I’m not seeing what it is, unless it’s as simple as “think fusion cuisine, but for eugenics.”
My brother's French bulldog was sweet, old, and lazy, but whenever she saw a plushed toy, her instincts kicked in and she tore it to shreds in seconds. And this is a breed that has had their hunting instinct bred out of them for more than a century!
She was from a breeder who specialised in longer-muzzled Frenchies. When she was younger, she could walk for several hours without tiring or being out of breath.
I’ve rarely seen a modern bulldog that didn’t look slightly mutant (and totally alien from how they looked 100 years ago.) They’re cute in a cartoonish sense, but I kinda think they would be better off if the whole line got cancelled then cross-bred with a bunch of mystery mutts going forward.
In the episode, Katie explicitly says pitbull only rank in the middle of the pack on the aggression scale. So, the idea pitbulls are especially violent is unsupported by data.
Reality suggests otherwise, but regardless, that is for human aggression only. They are very high for dog aggression. And more to the point, aggression level is only one factor; the level of damage they can do when they harness that aggression is more important. That’s why chihuahua bites might be underreported, but it doesn’t really matter because the reason they weren’t reported is they didn’t do much damage in the first place.
She quoted a lot of misleading pro-pit propaganda that's been knocking around for decades, unfortunately. I think that in her zeal to be evenhanded, she got taken for a ride.
Pits were like a lot of dogs, some were bred for fighting, some were bred for family.
I have a Boston Terrier sleeping next to me right now. America's first dog breed. She was bred for fighting and killing rats. Fighting and killing. All she does is fart, beg for food and snore like a defensive tackle.
Oof... Any breed can be pushed to its limit. Some get their faster than others. Generally speaking, I like Pitties, but at some point people have to just acknowledge they are not the dog for everyone.
Pitbull owner: "Look, you can't just leave your 52 year-old man unsupervised around a dog. Who knows what kind of mischief he might get into -- could have happened with a Chihuahua just as easily -- and then can you blame the dog for reacting like it did?"
He repaired and installed cabinets, had two kids, was visiting his elderly mother who lived across the street, it happened right near a primary school, he died a terrifying, horrific death. For anyone saying "We don't know the EXACT breed," okay, fine, Katie may be talking about one very specific breed for some odd reason. The rest of us are talking about big super-muscled dogs bred to fight to the kill with oversized jaws that have incredible crushing power. We are talking about ALL of those dogs, okay? Do you get it?
Do you generally think that the neighbors are right? Or do you think they are just being prejudiced?
As someone with a people-friendly/dog-neutral chihuahua mix, it usually doesn’t take long before my neighbors/the vets/my family are singing her praises even if they aren’t chi people.
One of my (many) bad experiences with pits was living next to one that clearly wanted to kill my cats. The owner’s caretaker admitted to leaving her cats behind to move in because the dog would kill them. Mine are indoor-only but they sometimes got out and explored the stairs. I was worried one of those escapades would be their death, and it wasn’t like the dogs owners were capable of restraining him. No, I did not appreciate them deciding on my behalf to take that risk.
Given what I know about the dog, people, and cat aggression in the breed I would probably not warm up to a pit bull on my street particularly fast even if it was friendly but I don’t think you can blame me. This isn’t about barking or even nipping.
I mean, I think it can go either way. I feel like I know a lot of pittie owners who have no business having anything more than a Shih Tzu, but I think there are also a LOT of unreasonable neighbors who just see a big dog and lose their minds.
My corgi nipped at my 4-year-old niece 3 years ago, and my brother in law thinks my marshmallow of a herding dog would rip a child apart limb from limb. For the record, everyone else in the family (except my sister and my niece who is now afraid of dogs) thinks he’s being unreasonable. Considering my priors, I’m generally more sympathetic to dog owners.
“The only acceptable moral stance?” Jesus who do you think you are? Oh wait, I already answered my question. I don’t even necessarily disagree with you but golly you’re an irritating prick.
This is an easy mistake to make, if you don't know that pit bulls don't attack for the same reasons as other dogs. They're bred to be capable of attacking when they're happy and calm -- such as when they're taken to a dogfight. Also, they're bred to fight without stopping for the usual reasons dogs stop fighting.
The danger of pit bull attacks has nothing to do with "being pushed to its limit."
Regular dogs can become dangerous because they've been mistreated or poorly trained or for a whole host of reasons why they've turned out messed up, and/or unhappy and/or mean. Pit bulls are dangerous because they're bred to be that way. It doesn't matter how nice an upbringing they've had. They can be truly loving, but they can even be fatal to the humans they love.
I think people have a hard time accepting you can’t just do something like code a biological system where 100% of the time it will behave a certain way. We’re not computers and neither are dogs.
That said, this is a mysterious one to me. I don’t know what the policy that would be to end this. I have a joking thought that in the far future you’ll have to have a license to own a dog but other than for that I don’t know how you enforce anything you write down.
Yeah, in my county dog owners are required to register their dog (which who knows how many of them do). I think it could be more well-enforced though, and I think there should be some serious fines/punishment involved if your dog becomes a public nuisance or hazard.
I also think there should be some legal requirements for breeding dogs. I'm not saying the AKC should be the governing body necessarily, but I think if you're breeding dogs, you should have a license for it and should adhere to standards of genetic testing and health.
Back yard breeders really get my goat. Sure your dog is cute, but unless you actually know what you're doing, you shouldn't be breeding your dog. I don't think you have to be an AKC breeder, but you really should consult an expert before breeding your dog and make sure they don't have any markers for hip displaysia, degenerative diseases, etc. This story pointed out that a lot of pittie breeders circumvent general breeding standards, and that really isn't okay.
Idk how it works in Germany but in my locality, you’re supposed to register your pet with the county and pay a small annual fee. This system is basically to ensure your pet is vaccinated against rabies. I believe this is pretty common in the US.
Really? When my dog was living I had to license her in every one of the five states we lived in over time. The process was pretty much the same across all of them.
Georgia - Basically you’re supposed to get them vaccinated against rabies every year. You don’t get the rabies vaccination tag until you register your pet with the county and pay the ~$20 fee. The tag comes in the mail and is supposed to be worn around the pet’s collar. I think the way it’s supposed to work is that if your pet bites someone, you can just show them the rabies vaccination tag and they can rest easy that they don’t have rabies. If you don’t have a tag, I’m not totally sure but stiffer legal penalties may apply if your pet bites someone.
In one county I’ve lived in, you can provide your pet’s microchip number to the county so that they can contact you if your pet gets found. So that’s kind of neat. And I keep saying “pet” because this applies to cats too.
So it definitely qualifies as a license/registry system but it’s not like they assess your fitness for animal ownership or anything like that.
In NYS, I registered my dog with the town for a small free & proof of rabies vaccination. Allegedly I’m supposed to renew this every year, but lol, no.
Most that I know of have requirements on the state, county or municipal level. It is not generally actively enforced.
If your dog is picked up by an animal control officer, or is reported for biting, you might be fined and required to get a license, with a low annual fee. In my town it's $6. It helps offset the expense of the ACO's salary.
I think annual registration is pretty common? I’ve lived in AZ and MI and have to pay a small registration fee each year. Mostly for rabies vaccine. They also charge more for non-neutered dogs.
Yes, I could not understand why she kept repeating this argument. Who cares if it’s really a pitbull and not an XL Bully - pitbulls were already banned in Britain.
That’s why they want to ban the bully: its a loophole where pitbull descendants are allowed into the UK. It’s allowing these large pitbulls to be legal until they hurt someone. I don’t care what breed this not-a-pitbull pitbull technically is. There’s a reason there are so many pitbull breeds: so people can no-true-scotsman any attack.
Right, this. And it’s logistically impossible to test every single dog out there.
Maybe this is also rather auth but it would make more practical sense for there to just make it more inconvenient for people to own poorly behaved large dogs — if a large dog bites someone enough for them to go to the doctor they should have a behavioral analysis done and euthanized if they’re considered a danger.
Yes. I really think the answer is not to ban or euthanize specific breeds, but to increase the dis-incentives for ownership of dogs that are uncontrolled and dangerous. This could be done via the US tort system (a slow moving oil tanker for sure), but other than that I'm not sure how you do it.
To your second point: Breed-specific legislation (BSL) does reduce the number of harmful dog-on-human attacks. (Bites from little dogs don't matter as much. Bites from dogs that bite and then LET GO don't matter as much. Bites from dogs that can be chased off don't matter as much).
Breed-specific legislation also reduces the number of pit bulls euthanized.
I agree that may be fallacy and said so in an earlier post. Just because Dave Wilson said-and probably believes-that he bred a docile pit bull doesn't mean he succeeded.
That’s why Kimbo was a registered pitbull (under one of the older fancy pitbull names). Bullies are a new pitbull variant and even if the breeders have tried to tone down the negative pitbull traits traits they have not had time to eliminate them.
The question is “is Kimbo an ancestor of many bullies” and if the answer is yes, then bullies are clearly pitbull derivatives.
Its like someone decided to breed low-energy aussies and one made the news a decade later for herding people or sheep and then a bunch of people saying it was clearly an Australian shepherd instead of an Australian no-herd. It really doesn’t matter--they are just an Australian Shepherd variant like show line vs working line labs. You expect them to show some of the working traits even the undesirable ones.
No. Specific breeds of dogs, and their variants. There are some weapons you want to ban. You want to ban all those of biological weapons from civilian ownership. That doesn't mean you want to ban knives because of their similarities to biological weapons.
No. The ep already made it clear that determining breed is especially difficult which is why experts disagree with breed specific bans. Moreover, your biological weapons bans is a category error, if that were to work you’d need to break down which bioweapons you’re trying to ban. You’re making my point for me.
Kind of like controlled substance analogues, except in this case it's controlled... animal analogues?
It makes sense, although it's hard to write analogue laws and even harder to understand where they apply and don't apply. That complexity unfortunately seems to be a byproduct of a complex world.
I have had so many bad experiences with pits--far outnumbering other breeds (and I have lived next to the kind of chihuahua that gives the breed a bad reputation.
1) A pit puppy ended up beneath my car as a child and we had to get animal control to remove it since it was snapping and growling when we tried to get close.
2) my upstairs neighbor had a Emotional Support Pitbull in a no-dogs apartment. It pulled its two owners around my apartment (he had more muscle than either put together) and fixated on my cats in the window. The owner admitted it was cat aggressive. I was worried for months that one day my cats would escape and then die.
I then moved into the house next to the demon chihuahua. I never worried about mine or my pets safety.
3) I was chased by two loose pit bulls while biking home from work a block away from an elementary school. No owner in sight, and I wasn’t going to get off the bike to find out if they were friendly to walkers. I have been briefly chased by other dogs, but they’ve all been controlled by owners.
4) one aggressive pitbull cleared out an entire dog park and lunged at the corgi who was the last dog out. The owner of a very large poodle mix spotted the car and said “this is a bad dog and we need to leave” and all five dogs and their people cleared out as fast as possible--to the point of sending me back for a water bottle since I didn’t have a dog to wrangle.
(The woman was a career high school security guard. She has honed instincts.)
5) a pitbull being walked by a jogger with headphones on growled at my chihuahua who I had pulled off the trail. I have NEVER been growled at by a dog being walked before or since--barked at, sure. Also, fuck that owner in particular.
I learned my lesson. If I see you walking your pit and can’t get away in time, I’ll pick my girl up. I don’t care if your offended, my dog is worth more.
I am sure some are fine, but I don’t trust them and I don’t trust their owners. The cost of “but he’s never done that before” is too damn high.
There’s a reason shelters are full of pitbulls and it isn’t haters like me--its the fault of the breeders.
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. My sister's dog was attacked out of the blue by a pitbull one day. Her dogwalker simply opened the door to the apartment, my sister's dog stepped onto the sidewalk, and a pitbull (on a leash, with another dogwalker) happened to be there. Apparently it was surprised, and immediately lunged at my sister's dog and went straight for the neck. Happily, my sister's dog survived, though with a massive (and I mean massive) wound to her neck. What if it hadn't been a dog? What if it had been a kid walking out of that door?
Anyway, setting aside the possible problems of the breed's nature itself, what really kills me is that each time I hear a pitbull story, the owner is always absentee or indifferent or casual about the tremendous violence of their pet. I have yet to hear a pitbull story where a pitbull mauls another dog or acts aggressively towards a person and the owner goes out of his or her way to try and make the situation better.
Returning to my sister's story, my sister and her husband contacted the owner of the pitbull and asked for compensation for veterinary bills (not cheap, as you can imagine). The owners absolutely refused, demanded that my sister stop contacting them and their dogwalker, etc. It took me, an attorney, helping my sister draft a letter threatening to sue them in court before the owners would take responsibility. And the owners didn't give off the air of being destitute; the man was a civil engineer and the woman was a nurse.
Anyway. I want to be open minded about this, so I guess I'll ask in general: what's the strongest argument for allowing people to continue breeding pitbulls?
This really is the ultimate issue -- if the only "use case" for your dog is companionship, then there are dozens of incontestably less dangerous breeds to pick from.
I adopted mine because I didn't know. He was a 10 week old puppy who looked very much like a lab. I didn't think he was full bred but I didn't look at him and immediately think he was a pit. I did his DNA and he is 40% pit. Now he's almost a year and becoming aggressive, I'm hiring a behavioral trainer and taking him to Penn Veterinary Hospital department of Behavioral Medicine. I didn't ask for this, I didn't want a pit but now I have him. He wasn't free either, far from it.
In the Philadelphia area it seems like you have three options for dogs: shelter which is almost entirely pit, rescues who drive for South to bring back pits or get a dog from an Amish puppy mill and have your dog from some inbred disease early. It's bad
I'm sorry that you ended up with a tricky dog. I did too. I knew he was a bully mix but I didn't know what I was in for. Thankfully mine isn't at all human agressive but he is very dog selective. I've done a lot of work with my boy and he's incredibly well trained now and still has shown no sign of human agreession, he's eight, and he has a few dog friends that I supervise all interactions with. I would never allow him to meet a strange dog and have sevearl tools to prevent that.
All this to say that sometimes a good trainer can do wonders with a dog, because of how into dog training I became I have dog training contacts in the US should you want me check in with my contacts to find a reccomendation. Hopefully the trainer you have does the trick but there are trainers and trainers.
Good luck, it's not easy but it can be super rewarding.
My instagram is @annaandboodle if you want to dm me any questions or if you would like me to look into trainers in your area.
I never heard the phrase "dog selective" before today. I saw it on a list of code words shelters use to mask aggression in dogs. It means "might kill another dog."
I am really hoping that he is young enough that we can manage this with some changed expectations and a lot of work. I have been crying all weekend over it.
They are available right now for free or cheap. I had to drive 45 minutes out of state to adopt a small dog from a rescue. If I had wanted a pit ( or in my area, a husky) I could have gotten a discount and stayed in town.
Which kind of proves the point - shelter dogs aren’t usually the product of careful breeding, to say the least, and a lot of time they get surrendered because of behavioral issues.
Whether or not aggressiveness can be bred out of the pitbull, there are a *lot* of baby pits and pit mixes out there that were decidedly not a product of such careful genetics.
Shelters around my area always have pits/pit mixes.
I had a pit many years ago. Free. We took the runt of the litter, very submissive, a sweet-natured obedient good boy. At 60-65 lbs he looked scary, which I appreciated, as we were very isolated, far out in the country, and I was often home alone.
I got mine because I like powerful breeds, my first dog was a Rottweiler. I didn't realise how much more difficult training would be with this one, I got him at one year and I had my Rotti from a puppy. Now I enjoy dog training and bulldogs are fun to train. My next dog will probably be a Belgian Malinois, I can almost guarantee they will be the next dog that's banned because they're becoming popular, their lines are being watered down and they're ending up in the hands of people who have no business having them.
I'm in the minority, most people I know get bully breeds becasue they're up for adoption. Pit Bull rescue advocates have done the breed, American Pit Bull Terrior, an enromous disservice by putting them in flower crowns and saying they're the friendliest dogs. The back yard breeding is also a huge problem becasue we're seeing dogs that were bred to have tenacity and strength becoming nervous wrecks.
The problem with all these dogs starts with the breeding. Good breeders won't let someone with no dog experience have a powerful dog, they'll take back dogs that aren't a good fit. Back yard breeding is the real problem and it's why no one is talking about Cane Corsos or Fila Brasileiro. People don't know what they don't know and 'you can save them all', 'adopt don't shop' people are doing more harm than good.
I was attacked out of the blue by a pitbull! I was in my mid 20s so when it lunged at me it got my leg, not my face, but it could easily have killed a small child with the same bite. As far as I can tell my crime was looking at it from across the room while having a conversation with its owner. That was like 6 years ago and I still have scars. The bruise turned into a hematoma that lasted several months. I will never go near a pitbull again, especially not one that's off leash. I exercise caution around pit mixes too (hard to avoid them completely, I know so many people who own them).
I'm a lifelong dog lover and that experience put the fear of god in me re: pitbulls. The power behind their bite is, frankly, fucking insane.
“The #1 breed requirement of our dogs is to be non-violent so every time they are violent they can’t be our breed” is some No True Scotsman nonsense that epitomizes the pitbull apologist mindset. Every attack is an exception, but every peaceful dog anecdote is the rule.
The idea that a breed that was bred for violence and literally no other job can be dumbed down into a docile marshmallow is incredibly naive.
I’m a AKC dog breeder, and while I am not in the Bull or terrier world, it’s insulting that people think the demeanor of dogs can be changed in such a short period of time. It takes dozens of generations and careful crossings to breed out unwanted traits and refine them.
First off, what kind of dog? (Because, you know, dogs). Secondly, while I admire that someone would try and breed aggression out of them, you’re right, it’s going to take some time to get there. (And I suspect it will also come with some significant changes in physical characteristics associated with more docile breeds—less muscle, rounder bodies, etc.)
Cavalier King Charles spaniels! Unfortunately yes, it would take time and you are correct in that a lot of physical traits would follow the changing of the personality. If you’re interested in what cross breeding to change even minor characteristics would be like, look into LUA Dalmatians, or the Backcross project. This was to change ONE trait in Dalmatians by crossing them with a pointer, and it took 40 years for the kennel club to accept the stock. While that’s very much (lower case)political, It’s daunting to think what a project would look like for a class of dogs to essentially be bred to reject the original purpose of the breed.
OMG I LOVE CAVALIER KING CHARLES SPANIELS!!!!!
It’s a breed plagued with a lot of health issues. People don’t seem to care about it as much because spaniels don’t outwardly look as deformed as pugs do.
I do too!! I want one but my husband doesn't like the look of them. Blurg!
Yeah, I had one, so smart. I developed a good arm after throwing the ball 10K every day.
OK but the AKC is a bit deranged in this department. Like the guy with huskies from Siberia but no, they couldn't be registered as Siberian Huskies. The Basenji folks managed it somehow. In general I'm not impressed with what happens to AKC breeds. I wasn't glad to see Beaucerons become an AKC breed.
It’s also insulting that people think PBs are somehow more dangerous than other similar breeds.
The science doesn’t support it
yes it does https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_States the vast majority of these dogs are pitbull type dogs.
Retrievers innately know how to retrieve, pointers point fresh outta the womb, herding dogs herd people and other critters, sled dogs love to pull shit, fighting dogs... are very sweet and don't do anything, what are you talking about?!
Definitely no inborn breed traits here!!
https://imgur.com/lPlHgYm
Cute!
All dogs fight or at least are bread from dogs that fight
All dogs bite , that’s what the teeth are for
Also all dogs can point, pointers are just better at it
It’s weird, too, like breeding a panda with a taste for toddlers. It seems to me that you’d have a reason for doing this but I’m not seeing what it is, unless it’s as simple as “think fusion cuisine, but for eugenics.”
Right, if you really want a medium-sized dog that’s a docile marshmallow, labs are right there. So what’s the point of all this?
“Your scientists were so preoccupied with whether or not they could, they didn’t stop to think if they should.” - another movie
Was the movie the one about the dog named Cujo whose title I can’t remember?
Uh, no, this movie has much bigger dogs.
The title of the movie about the dog named "Cujo" is "Cujo."
Labs are cuter, too!
Absolutely...
My brother's French bulldog was sweet, old, and lazy, but whenever she saw a plushed toy, her instincts kicked in and she tore it to shreds in seconds. And this is a breed that has had their hunting instinct bred out of them for more than a century!
It has also been bred not to be able to breathe properly, so that helps.
She was from a breeder who specialised in longer-muzzled Frenchies. When she was younger, she could walk for several hours without tiring or being out of breath.
I’ve rarely seen a modern bulldog that didn’t look slightly mutant (and totally alien from how they looked 100 years ago.) They’re cute in a cartoonish sense, but I kinda think they would be better off if the whole line got cancelled then cross-bred with a bunch of mystery mutts going forward.
My mom's maltese enjoys killing mice. He's 8lbs soaking wet and is also a breed that has had its hunting instinct bred out of it for centuries.
In the episode, Katie explicitly says pitbull only rank in the middle of the pack on the aggression scale. So, the idea pitbulls are especially violent is unsupported by data.
Reality suggests otherwise, but regardless, that is for human aggression only. They are very high for dog aggression. And more to the point, aggression level is only one factor; the level of damage they can do when they harness that aggression is more important. That’s why chihuahua bites might be underreported, but it doesn’t really matter because the reason they weren’t reported is they didn’t do much damage in the first place.
She quoted a lot of misleading pro-pit propaganda that's been knocking around for decades, unfortunately. I think that in her zeal to be evenhanded, she got taken for a ride.
Pits were like a lot of dogs, some were bred for fighting, some were bred for family.
I have a Boston Terrier sleeping next to me right now. America's first dog breed. She was bred for fighting and killing rats. Fighting and killing. All she does is fart, beg for food and snore like a defensive tackle.
Oof... Any breed can be pushed to its limit. Some get their faster than others. Generally speaking, I like Pitties, but at some point people have to just acknowledge they are not the dog for everyone.
A Pit Bull Terrier is never the right dog for the owner's neighbors. This is the only acceptable moral stance.
That is the biggest complaint I hear: The neighborhood had the biggest problem with the dog. 🤦🏻♀️
A 52-year-old man in the next county from me was killed by his neighbour's two XL Bully dogs last weekend. So, yeah. https://www.staffordshire-live.co.uk/news/local-news/man-killed-xl-bully-dog-8755463
Pitbull owner: "Look, you can't just leave your 52 year-old man unsupervised around a dog. Who knows what kind of mischief he might get into -- could have happened with a Chihuahua just as easily -- and then can you blame the dog for reacting like it did?"
He repaired and installed cabinets, had two kids, was visiting his elderly mother who lived across the street, it happened right near a primary school, he died a terrifying, horrific death. For anyone saying "We don't know the EXACT breed," okay, fine, Katie may be talking about one very specific breed for some odd reason. The rest of us are talking about big super-muscled dogs bred to fight to the kill with oversized jaws that have incredible crushing power. We are talking about ALL of those dogs, okay? Do you get it?
Well some of “those dogs” in the statistics were labradors.
Not for nothing, the dog breed isn’t established in the story. “Two *suspected* bully XLs”. This is a big part of the story Katie is telling.
Exactly—the precise breed responsible for these attacks is pretty unclear.
Holy shit. The article said this happened right across the street from a primary school.
Do you generally think that the neighbors are right? Or do you think they are just being prejudiced?
As someone with a people-friendly/dog-neutral chihuahua mix, it usually doesn’t take long before my neighbors/the vets/my family are singing her praises even if they aren’t chi people.
One of my (many) bad experiences with pits was living next to one that clearly wanted to kill my cats. The owner’s caretaker admitted to leaving her cats behind to move in because the dog would kill them. Mine are indoor-only but they sometimes got out and explored the stairs. I was worried one of those escapades would be their death, and it wasn’t like the dogs owners were capable of restraining him. No, I did not appreciate them deciding on my behalf to take that risk.
Given what I know about the dog, people, and cat aggression in the breed I would probably not warm up to a pit bull on my street particularly fast even if it was friendly but I don’t think you can blame me. This isn’t about barking or even nipping.
I mean, I think it can go either way. I feel like I know a lot of pittie owners who have no business having anything more than a Shih Tzu, but I think there are also a LOT of unreasonable neighbors who just see a big dog and lose their minds.
My corgi nipped at my 4-year-old niece 3 years ago, and my brother in law thinks my marshmallow of a herding dog would rip a child apart limb from limb. For the record, everyone else in the family (except my sister and my niece who is now afraid of dogs) thinks he’s being unreasonable. Considering my priors, I’m generally more sympathetic to dog owners.
“The only acceptable moral stance”…
“The only acceptable moral stance?” Jesus who do you think you are? Oh wait, I already answered my question. I don’t even necessarily disagree with you but golly you’re an irritating prick.
No direct insults, please. When you say something like that, it can be turned directly back against you and then the flush down the toilet begins.
This is an easy mistake to make, if you don't know that pit bulls don't attack for the same reasons as other dogs. They're bred to be capable of attacking when they're happy and calm -- such as when they're taken to a dogfight. Also, they're bred to fight without stopping for the usual reasons dogs stop fighting.
The danger of pit bull attacks has nothing to do with "being pushed to its limit."
Regular dogs can become dangerous because they've been mistreated or poorly trained or for a whole host of reasons why they've turned out messed up, and/or unhappy and/or mean. Pit bulls are dangerous because they're bred to be that way. It doesn't matter how nice an upbringing they've had. They can be truly loving, but they can even be fatal to the humans they love.
I think people have a hard time accepting you can’t just do something like code a biological system where 100% of the time it will behave a certain way. We’re not computers and neither are dogs.
That said, this is a mysterious one to me. I don’t know what the policy that would be to end this. I have a joking thought that in the far future you’ll have to have a license to own a dog but other than for that I don’t know how you enforce anything you write down.
Yeah, in my county dog owners are required to register their dog (which who knows how many of them do). I think it could be more well-enforced though, and I think there should be some serious fines/punishment involved if your dog becomes a public nuisance or hazard.
I also think there should be some legal requirements for breeding dogs. I'm not saying the AKC should be the governing body necessarily, but I think if you're breeding dogs, you should have a license for it and should adhere to standards of genetic testing and health.
Back yard breeders really get my goat. Sure your dog is cute, but unless you actually know what you're doing, you shouldn't be breeding your dog. I don't think you have to be an AKC breeder, but you really should consult an expert before breeding your dog and make sure they don't have any markers for hip displaysia, degenerative diseases, etc. This story pointed out that a lot of pittie breeders circumvent general breeding standards, and that really isn't okay.
I live in Germany and you have to have a license and pay a yearly tax to own a dog. No idea if it makes any difference though
That’s incredible because it would be so unthinkable in the states.
Idk how it works in Germany but in my locality, you’re supposed to register your pet with the county and pay a small annual fee. This system is basically to ensure your pet is vaccinated against rabies. I believe this is pretty common in the US.
Which state? Genuinely have never heard of this.
Every state I’ve ever lived in has required this, too. Enforcement is basically non-existent, though.
Really? When my dog was living I had to license her in every one of the five states we lived in over time. The process was pretty much the same across all of them.
Georgia - Basically you’re supposed to get them vaccinated against rabies every year. You don’t get the rabies vaccination tag until you register your pet with the county and pay the ~$20 fee. The tag comes in the mail and is supposed to be worn around the pet’s collar. I think the way it’s supposed to work is that if your pet bites someone, you can just show them the rabies vaccination tag and they can rest easy that they don’t have rabies. If you don’t have a tag, I’m not totally sure but stiffer legal penalties may apply if your pet bites someone.
In one county I’ve lived in, you can provide your pet’s microchip number to the county so that they can contact you if your pet gets found. So that’s kind of neat. And I keep saying “pet” because this applies to cats too.
So it definitely qualifies as a license/registry system but it’s not like they assess your fitness for animal ownership or anything like that.
In NYS, I registered my dog with the town for a small free & proof of rabies vaccination. Allegedly I’m supposed to renew this every year, but lol, no.
Most that I know of have requirements on the state, county or municipal level. It is not generally actively enforced.
If your dog is picked up by an animal control officer, or is reported for biting, you might be fined and required to get a license, with a low annual fee. In my town it's $6. It helps offset the expense of the ACO's salary.
MN has registration requirements for "Dangerous Breeds" :
https://mn.gov/elicense/a-z/?id=1083-230637#/list/appId//filterType//filterValue//page/1/sort//order/
Most cities also have ordinances. E.g., my city of Duluth requires a license for all cats and dogs in the city:
https://duluthmn.gov/city-clerk/licenses-permits/animal-licensing/
I think annual registration is pretty common? I’ve lived in AZ and MI and have to pay a small registration fee each year. Mostly for rabies vaccine. They also charge more for non-neutered dogs.
An anecdote!
Yes, I could not understand why she kept repeating this argument. Who cares if it’s really a pitbull and not an XL Bully - pitbulls were already banned in Britain.
That’s why they want to ban the bully: its a loophole where pitbull descendants are allowed into the UK. It’s allowing these large pitbulls to be legal until they hurt someone. I don’t care what breed this not-a-pitbull pitbull technically is. There’s a reason there are so many pitbull breeds: so people can no-true-scotsman any attack.
You seem to be ignoring two facts which cut to the heart of the breed -ban fallacy:
1. We don't really know what breed we're banning (and maybe don't care, it just feels good).
2. Breed-specific bans don't seem to reduce the total number of dog-on-human attacks.
Katie's whole exposé was really just about the idiocy of breed bans- but also how they seem to arouse a certain authoritarian boner in some people.
Right, this. And it’s logistically impossible to test every single dog out there.
Maybe this is also rather auth but it would make more practical sense for there to just make it more inconvenient for people to own poorly behaved large dogs — if a large dog bites someone enough for them to go to the doctor they should have a behavioral analysis done and euthanized if they’re considered a danger.
Yes. I really think the answer is not to ban or euthanize specific breeds, but to increase the dis-incentives for ownership of dogs that are uncontrolled and dangerous. This could be done via the US tort system (a slow moving oil tanker for sure), but other than that I'm not sure how you do it.
To your second point: Breed-specific legislation (BSL) does reduce the number of harmful dog-on-human attacks. (Bites from little dogs don't matter as much. Bites from dogs that bite and then LET GO don't matter as much. Bites from dogs that can be chased off don't matter as much).
Breed-specific legislation also reduces the number of pit bulls euthanized.
It's a myth that BSL doesn't do any good.
I agree that may be fallacy and said so in an earlier post. Just because Dave Wilson said-and probably believes-that he bred a docile pit bull doesn't mean he succeeded.
That’s why Kimbo was a registered pitbull (under one of the older fancy pitbull names). Bullies are a new pitbull variant and even if the breeders have tried to tone down the negative pitbull traits traits they have not had time to eliminate them.
The question is “is Kimbo an ancestor of many bullies” and if the answer is yes, then bullies are clearly pitbull derivatives.
Its like someone decided to breed low-energy aussies and one made the news a decade later for herding people or sheep and then a bunch of people saying it was clearly an Australian shepherd instead of an Australian no-herd. It really doesn’t matter--they are just an Australian Shepherd variant like show line vs working line labs. You expect them to show some of the working traits even the undesirable ones.
😂
No, ban all the variants of the thing you are tying to ban.
So, dogs?
No. Specific breeds of dogs, and their variants. There are some weapons you want to ban. You want to ban all those of biological weapons from civilian ownership. That doesn't mean you want to ban knives because of their similarities to biological weapons.
No. The ep already made it clear that determining breed is especially difficult which is why experts disagree with breed specific bans. Moreover, your biological weapons bans is a category error, if that were to work you’d need to break down which bioweapons you’re trying to ban. You’re making my point for me.
Kind of like controlled substance analogues, except in this case it's controlled... animal analogues?
It makes sense, although it's hard to write analogue laws and even harder to understand where they apply and don't apply. That complexity unfortunately seems to be a byproduct of a complex world.
I have had so many bad experiences with pits--far outnumbering other breeds (and I have lived next to the kind of chihuahua that gives the breed a bad reputation.
1) A pit puppy ended up beneath my car as a child and we had to get animal control to remove it since it was snapping and growling when we tried to get close.
2) my upstairs neighbor had a Emotional Support Pitbull in a no-dogs apartment. It pulled its two owners around my apartment (he had more muscle than either put together) and fixated on my cats in the window. The owner admitted it was cat aggressive. I was worried for months that one day my cats would escape and then die.
I then moved into the house next to the demon chihuahua. I never worried about mine or my pets safety.
3) I was chased by two loose pit bulls while biking home from work a block away from an elementary school. No owner in sight, and I wasn’t going to get off the bike to find out if they were friendly to walkers. I have been briefly chased by other dogs, but they’ve all been controlled by owners.
4) one aggressive pitbull cleared out an entire dog park and lunged at the corgi who was the last dog out. The owner of a very large poodle mix spotted the car and said “this is a bad dog and we need to leave” and all five dogs and their people cleared out as fast as possible--to the point of sending me back for a water bottle since I didn’t have a dog to wrangle.
(The woman was a career high school security guard. She has honed instincts.)
5) a pitbull being walked by a jogger with headphones on growled at my chihuahua who I had pulled off the trail. I have NEVER been growled at by a dog being walked before or since--barked at, sure. Also, fuck that owner in particular.
I learned my lesson. If I see you walking your pit and can’t get away in time, I’ll pick my girl up. I don’t care if your offended, my dog is worth more.
I am sure some are fine, but I don’t trust them and I don’t trust their owners. The cost of “but he’s never done that before” is too damn high.
There’s a reason shelters are full of pitbulls and it isn’t haters like me--its the fault of the breeders.
Sorry to hear about your bad experiences. My sister's dog was attacked out of the blue by a pitbull one day. Her dogwalker simply opened the door to the apartment, my sister's dog stepped onto the sidewalk, and a pitbull (on a leash, with another dogwalker) happened to be there. Apparently it was surprised, and immediately lunged at my sister's dog and went straight for the neck. Happily, my sister's dog survived, though with a massive (and I mean massive) wound to her neck. What if it hadn't been a dog? What if it had been a kid walking out of that door?
Anyway, setting aside the possible problems of the breed's nature itself, what really kills me is that each time I hear a pitbull story, the owner is always absentee or indifferent or casual about the tremendous violence of their pet. I have yet to hear a pitbull story where a pitbull mauls another dog or acts aggressively towards a person and the owner goes out of his or her way to try and make the situation better.
Returning to my sister's story, my sister and her husband contacted the owner of the pitbull and asked for compensation for veterinary bills (not cheap, as you can imagine). The owners absolutely refused, demanded that my sister stop contacting them and their dogwalker, etc. It took me, an attorney, helping my sister draft a letter threatening to sue them in court before the owners would take responsibility. And the owners didn't give off the air of being destitute; the man was a civil engineer and the woman was a nurse.
Anyway. I want to be open minded about this, so I guess I'll ask in general: what's the strongest argument for allowing people to continue breeding pitbulls?
The unanswerable question here is: What are people getting out of pitbulls that they can’t get from any number of lower-risk dogs?
This really is the ultimate issue -- if the only "use case" for your dog is companionship, then there are dozens of incontestably less dangerous breeds to pick from.
I adopted mine because I didn't know. He was a 10 week old puppy who looked very much like a lab. I didn't think he was full bred but I didn't look at him and immediately think he was a pit. I did his DNA and he is 40% pit. Now he's almost a year and becoming aggressive, I'm hiring a behavioral trainer and taking him to Penn Veterinary Hospital department of Behavioral Medicine. I didn't ask for this, I didn't want a pit but now I have him. He wasn't free either, far from it.
In the Philadelphia area it seems like you have three options for dogs: shelter which is almost entirely pit, rescues who drive for South to bring back pits or get a dog from an Amish puppy mill and have your dog from some inbred disease early. It's bad
Hi Julia,
I'm sorry that you ended up with a tricky dog. I did too. I knew he was a bully mix but I didn't know what I was in for. Thankfully mine isn't at all human agressive but he is very dog selective. I've done a lot of work with my boy and he's incredibly well trained now and still has shown no sign of human agreession, he's eight, and he has a few dog friends that I supervise all interactions with. I would never allow him to meet a strange dog and have sevearl tools to prevent that.
All this to say that sometimes a good trainer can do wonders with a dog, because of how into dog training I became I have dog training contacts in the US should you want me check in with my contacts to find a reccomendation. Hopefully the trainer you have does the trick but there are trainers and trainers.
Good luck, it's not easy but it can be super rewarding.
My instagram is @annaandboodle if you want to dm me any questions or if you would like me to look into trainers in your area.
I never heard the phrase "dog selective" before today. I saw it on a list of code words shelters use to mask aggression in dogs. It means "might kill another dog."
Good luck. I feel bad for people in your situation. You didn’t seek this out.
Thank you.
I am really hoping that he is young enough that we can manage this with some changed expectations and a lot of work. I have been crying all weekend over it.
I’ve heard “I can fix him” syndrome and that’s probably the best explanation (for female owners) that you’re likely to get.
They are available right now for free or cheap. I had to drive 45 minutes out of state to adopt a small dog from a rescue. If I had wanted a pit ( or in my area, a husky) I could have gotten a discount and stayed in town.
Which kind of proves the point - shelter dogs aren’t usually the product of careful breeding, to say the least, and a lot of time they get surrendered because of behavioral issues.
Whether or not aggressiveness can be bred out of the pitbull, there are a *lot* of baby pits and pit mixes out there that were decidedly not a product of such careful genetics.
Shelters around my area always have pits/pit mixes.
I had a pit many years ago. Free. We took the runt of the litter, very submissive, a sweet-natured obedient good boy. At 60-65 lbs he looked scary, which I appreciated, as we were very isolated, far out in the country, and I was often home alone.
I got mine because I like powerful breeds, my first dog was a Rottweiler. I didn't realise how much more difficult training would be with this one, I got him at one year and I had my Rotti from a puppy. Now I enjoy dog training and bulldogs are fun to train. My next dog will probably be a Belgian Malinois, I can almost guarantee they will be the next dog that's banned because they're becoming popular, their lines are being watered down and they're ending up in the hands of people who have no business having them.
I'm in the minority, most people I know get bully breeds becasue they're up for adoption. Pit Bull rescue advocates have done the breed, American Pit Bull Terrior, an enromous disservice by putting them in flower crowns and saying they're the friendliest dogs. The back yard breeding is also a huge problem becasue we're seeing dogs that were bred to have tenacity and strength becoming nervous wrecks.
The problem with all these dogs starts with the breeding. Good breeders won't let someone with no dog experience have a powerful dog, they'll take back dogs that aren't a good fit. Back yard breeding is the real problem and it's why no one is talking about Cane Corsos or Fila Brasileiro. People don't know what they don't know and 'you can save them all', 'adopt don't shop' people are doing more harm than good.
Sorry I went off on a tangent there.
This is very sensible
100% agree. I don't get it. I'd love to hear the argument for it.
This is what I was wondering, too.
THEY NEVER APOLOGIZE
I was attacked out of the blue by a pitbull! I was in my mid 20s so when it lunged at me it got my leg, not my face, but it could easily have killed a small child with the same bite. As far as I can tell my crime was looking at it from across the room while having a conversation with its owner. That was like 6 years ago and I still have scars. The bruise turned into a hematoma that lasted several months. I will never go near a pitbull again, especially not one that's off leash. I exercise caution around pit mixes too (hard to avoid them completely, I know so many people who own them).
I'm a lifelong dog lover and that experience put the fear of god in me re: pitbulls. The power behind their bite is, frankly, fucking insane.