ik this comment is several days old but wanted to note that at several major research universities there has been a student-led effort to end projects affiliated with the saudi government and saudi companies on the basis of their human rights record and fossil fuel wealth. so, while not as loud or controversial or generative of major new…
ik this comment is several days old but wanted to note that at several major research universities there has been a student-led effort to end projects affiliated with the saudi government and saudi companies on the basis of their human rights record and fossil fuel wealth. so, while not as loud or controversial or generative of major news coverage as young progressive reactions to the current conflict, i don't think it's fair to say that progressives have been silent on saudi arabia as a whole. obviously there's a fair bit of hypocrisy and mess with the simultaneous cultural engagement with the kingdom etc but - as usual - it's complicated
And that sounds admirable but really just strikes me as lip-service and virtue signaling. These students entire lives are built on fossil fuels and ending these projects impacts their oil based quality of life, not one iota.
Its like the code pink anti-war morons who are always disrupting foreign policy hearings, just as they are this week. Virtue signalling by people who can only hold such luxury beliefs because they are defended by advanced militaries.
So, while the students may appear to be engaging, it strikes me as just more of the same hypocrisy.
sure, i get that you're not into progressive activism. a lot of the pushback to saudi-affiliated projects has also been due to their poor human rights record, which also doesn't ultimately affect the quality of life of the protesting students but is an opposition based on principle. my point was simply that the 'curious silence' about saudi human rights abuses from progressive corners you mentioned isn't a fair characterization. seems like you disagree with their protests against saudi arabia as well -- just worth acknowledging that they're there, is all.
First it is largely silent, that you had to dig up some obscure cases to justify the idea that the left isn’t *totally* silent on SA, just proves my point.
Second, it’s not that I oppose peaceful protest of any kind. It’s that lefty protest is so often protesting the very things that guarantee their ability to be openly lefty and indeed protest (military, free speech, etc.) that the act itself is made clownish.
I suppose opposing SA rights on human rights grounds is *something* but it just strikes me as the same old slacktivism.
They're not obscure; they're fairly prominent and taking place in the same contexts (universities) as the protests that have generated the most attention in this forum. I acknowledged out of the gate that it hasn't been as loud or attention-grabbing as the current wave of protests.
I'm not trying to convince you that the left has been equally (or adequately) critical of Saudi Arabia. Like I said, I just think 'silence' is a mischaracterization and, as you're showing here, you can still be plenty critical of lefty protestors while acknowledging the full breadth of their positions.
So, there was a harvard letter signed by 30 organizations decrying SA human rights violations and petrocracy? If not, its still comparatively obscure.
Look we basically agree so I don’t want to get too far into a narcissism of small differences debate. I just think that silence vs unknown protest is a distinction without a difference.
yeah there's really no need to argue here, but i think that if you're looking at number of orgs involved, it's probably more similar than you would expect (the intensity of individual member engagement probably does differ). campus activists love an open letter to the admin. if you're looking at national attention/buzz generated, there's no contest. a lot of this comes down to the fact that when a bunch of harvard or stanford students write op-eds and letters to the admin or do sit-ins protesting engagement with saudi arabia or russia (another one that was a big wave of student engagement), etc it's not a national news story.
he said "curious silence from the woke-nut gallery on the horrors from the House of Saud" and then when you showed him cases of SA being criticized within universities, he said it was lip service. Frankly it's difficult to take the original criticism seriously or even on good faith when there's apparently no way to be "right," whether you protest SA or not.
ik this comment is several days old but wanted to note that at several major research universities there has been a student-led effort to end projects affiliated with the saudi government and saudi companies on the basis of their human rights record and fossil fuel wealth. so, while not as loud or controversial or generative of major news coverage as young progressive reactions to the current conflict, i don't think it's fair to say that progressives have been silent on saudi arabia as a whole. obviously there's a fair bit of hypocrisy and mess with the simultaneous cultural engagement with the kingdom etc but - as usual - it's complicated
And that sounds admirable but really just strikes me as lip-service and virtue signaling. These students entire lives are built on fossil fuels and ending these projects impacts their oil based quality of life, not one iota.
Its like the code pink anti-war morons who are always disrupting foreign policy hearings, just as they are this week. Virtue signalling by people who can only hold such luxury beliefs because they are defended by advanced militaries.
So, while the students may appear to be engaging, it strikes me as just more of the same hypocrisy.
sure, i get that you're not into progressive activism. a lot of the pushback to saudi-affiliated projects has also been due to their poor human rights record, which also doesn't ultimately affect the quality of life of the protesting students but is an opposition based on principle. my point was simply that the 'curious silence' about saudi human rights abuses from progressive corners you mentioned isn't a fair characterization. seems like you disagree with their protests against saudi arabia as well -- just worth acknowledging that they're there, is all.
First it is largely silent, that you had to dig up some obscure cases to justify the idea that the left isn’t *totally* silent on SA, just proves my point.
Second, it’s not that I oppose peaceful protest of any kind. It’s that lefty protest is so often protesting the very things that guarantee their ability to be openly lefty and indeed protest (military, free speech, etc.) that the act itself is made clownish.
I suppose opposing SA rights on human rights grounds is *something* but it just strikes me as the same old slacktivism.
They're not obscure; they're fairly prominent and taking place in the same contexts (universities) as the protests that have generated the most attention in this forum. I acknowledged out of the gate that it hasn't been as loud or attention-grabbing as the current wave of protests.
I'm not trying to convince you that the left has been equally (or adequately) critical of Saudi Arabia. Like I said, I just think 'silence' is a mischaracterization and, as you're showing here, you can still be plenty critical of lefty protestors while acknowledging the full breadth of their positions.
So, there was a harvard letter signed by 30 organizations decrying SA human rights violations and petrocracy? If not, its still comparatively obscure.
Look we basically agree so I don’t want to get too far into a narcissism of small differences debate. I just think that silence vs unknown protest is a distinction without a difference.
yeah there's really no need to argue here, but i think that if you're looking at number of orgs involved, it's probably more similar than you would expect (the intensity of individual member engagement probably does differ). campus activists love an open letter to the admin. if you're looking at national attention/buzz generated, there's no contest. a lot of this comes down to the fact that when a bunch of harvard or stanford students write op-eds and letters to the admin or do sit-ins protesting engagement with saudi arabia or russia (another one that was a big wave of student engagement), etc it's not a national news story.
he said "curious silence from the woke-nut gallery on the horrors from the House of Saud" and then when you showed him cases of SA being criticized within universities, he said it was lip service. Frankly it's difficult to take the original criticism seriously or even on good faith when there's apparently no way to be "right," whether you protest SA or not.