I’m not usually a pronoun purist, I respect J & K’s policy, but this story is very difficult to follow using preferred pronouns.
Why should criminals and psychopaths get to be called what they’re not, especially when they present a real threat to public safety? The phrase “suicidal empathy” comes to mind.
This story might tip me over—why is “respect” more important than facts?
I’m not usually a pronoun purist, I respect J & K’s policy, but this story is very difficult to follow using preferred pronouns.
Why should criminals and psychopaths get to be called what they’re not, especially when they present a real threat to public safety? The phrase “suicidal empathy” comes to mind.
This story might tip me over—why is “respect” more important than facts?
Well, THIS NYT story tipped me over several years ago.
Here's the headline about a serial killer named Harvey Marcelin:
SHE Killed Two Women. At 83, She Is Charged With Dismembering a Third.
Harvey Marcelin was charged with murder after a head was found in HER Brooklyn apartment. Officials said it belonged to a dismembered body discovered in a shopping cart.
"Ms. Marcelin — who was listed as male in earlier court records but now identifies as a woman, according to a law enforcement official — was indicted on second-degree murder charges on Thursday in the death of Susan Leyden, 68. SHE is accused of dismembering her and hiding her body parts."
In another article "SHE" has changed HER name to Marceline Harvey:
How Did a Two-Time Killer Get Out to Be Charged Again at Age 83?
Marceline Harvey is accused of dismembering a woman in Brooklyn. HER life was defined by a tormented relationship with women and HERSELF — and a simmering anger.
There are many such cases of male criminals insisting they are women. Journalism style guides require the use of preferred pronouns. Unfortunately, in criminal cases that means that journalists help perpetuate fraud rather than uncover the truth.
And don't forget Dana Rivers, the poor oppressed woman who just had to brutally murder two women and their son because he was told no.
I wish people would quit with this. Aside from making podcasts hard to listen to since so many of these people seem to be men just playing female (possibly to appear less dangerous to others or to obscure their identities), why are we indulging violent murderers? Who cares if it offends them? Why do we all have to practice their religion? I wish journalists would be less cowardly. I've seen some "a man who identifies as a woman" on occasion. Maybe it'll keep up.
I cancelled my NYTimes subscription because of that article. Five years ago we were all on board with the pronouns. It now needs to end. The person who committed the Petit murders (2007) was just granted a female name. Child sex abuse by women is increasing dramatically, which of course has nothing to do with women abusing children more often. At this point there is no doubt that women in prison are being sexually abused by men calling themselves women every day, the population is so large. Our dignity, humanity, safety, identity, and all that is good about being a woman is continually being taken from us. Sorry to be dramatic, but please stop. It is soooo easy to explain this at the beginning of the conversation. You don't have to do it for everyone. But for god's sake, do it for the people who don't deserve the privilege, and for whom it is a slap in the face for women.
yeah i agree, and i think that if you sit and think about it for a bit it all starts to unravel. because where do you draw the line? is it entirely arbitrary? if someone simply offends me, are they no longer worthy of pronouns? what determines whether someone "gets" to dictate what pronouns to use?
at the end of it all i can only come to the conclusion that there should be a cultural understanding that we don't get to control the words other people use to describe us. we have our preferences -- it's *always* been rude to call a woman a man, for instance -- but when it comes to preferred self ID i think truth is far more important, ESPECIALLY in journalism.
It’s a fact these are trans women, who are definitionally males, and which was abundantly clear in the story. “She” pronouns are typically used for trans women. What facts are being discarded?
It's not clear to me if they are all males identifying as women. The person whose parents were murdered, for example, I have seen identified as a man and in another source as a woman.
Do you happen to know if any females are involved in this group?
If not, then why bother to keep up the pretense that these are women when they are seriously disturbed violent men? If there are females involved, then I would argue it's even more important to distinguish among the perpetrators so that the public can be adequately informed.
yeah this is it. for me, i understood that Ziz is a biological male, but as for the other people involved? i was under the impression that there were actual biowomen involved (isn't the person who bought the gun a female?) but i couldn't tell you how many. if they're actually *all* transwomen (ie biomen) then that would surprise me, cuz that's not how i interpreted it.
the problem is that it isn't stated in the story. there needs to be a clear statement at the start of who is who, who was born male, who was born female, etc. we're talking about journalism, and journalism is about reporting the truth. the truth is that Ziz is a biological male, and the fact that he hasn't even gone through any sort of actual medical transition -- meaning he absolutely has every bit of hormones that makes males more aggressive than females flowing through his system -- makes the entire thing even more absurd.
I think in a more formal context where readers/listeners are expecting objective facts, like a news report or in a court room, sex based pronouns should be used. Between friends or in informal contexts like substack forums, call each other whatever you prefer.
Preferred pronouns make things more confusing and obscure the actual sex of the person - which is the goal of course. Saying, she used the women's changing room doesn't get to the heart of the issue that a male-bodied person used the women't changing room.
I’m not usually a pronoun purist, I respect J & K’s policy, but this story is very difficult to follow using preferred pronouns.
Why should criminals and psychopaths get to be called what they’re not, especially when they present a real threat to public safety? The phrase “suicidal empathy” comes to mind.
This story might tip me over—why is “respect” more important than facts?
Well, THIS NYT story tipped me over several years ago.
Here's the headline about a serial killer named Harvey Marcelin:
SHE Killed Two Women. At 83, She Is Charged With Dismembering a Third.
Harvey Marcelin was charged with murder after a head was found in HER Brooklyn apartment. Officials said it belonged to a dismembered body discovered in a shopping cart.
"Ms. Marcelin — who was listed as male in earlier court records but now identifies as a woman, according to a law enforcement official — was indicted on second-degree murder charges on Thursday in the death of Susan Leyden, 68. SHE is accused of dismembering her and hiding her body parts."
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/10/nyregion/harvey-marcelin-shopping-cart-body.html?smid=url-share
In another article "SHE" has changed HER name to Marceline Harvey:
How Did a Two-Time Killer Get Out to Be Charged Again at Age 83?
Marceline Harvey is accused of dismembering a woman in Brooklyn. HER life was defined by a tormented relationship with women and HERSELF — and a simmering anger.
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/07/30/nyregion/how-did-a-two-time-killer-get-out-to-be-charged-again-at-age-83.html?smid=url-share
If that's not Orwellian I don't know what is!
There are many such cases of male criminals insisting they are women. Journalism style guides require the use of preferred pronouns. Unfortunately, in criminal cases that means that journalists help perpetuate fraud rather than uncover the truth.
For more stories about male criminals posing as women, see https://reduxx.info/
And don't forget Dana Rivers, the poor oppressed woman who just had to brutally murder two women and their son because he was told no.
I wish people would quit with this. Aside from making podcasts hard to listen to since so many of these people seem to be men just playing female (possibly to appear less dangerous to others or to obscure their identities), why are we indulging violent murderers? Who cares if it offends them? Why do we all have to practice their religion? I wish journalists would be less cowardly. I've seen some "a man who identifies as a woman" on occasion. Maybe it'll keep up.
I cancelled my NYTimes subscription because of that article. Five years ago we were all on board with the pronouns. It now needs to end. The person who committed the Petit murders (2007) was just granted a female name. Child sex abuse by women is increasing dramatically, which of course has nothing to do with women abusing children more often. At this point there is no doubt that women in prison are being sexually abused by men calling themselves women every day, the population is so large. Our dignity, humanity, safety, identity, and all that is good about being a woman is continually being taken from us. Sorry to be dramatic, but please stop. It is soooo easy to explain this at the beginning of the conversation. You don't have to do it for everyone. But for god's sake, do it for the people who don't deserve the privilege, and for whom it is a slap in the face for women.
how dare you remind me of this when i’m not yet due for my bimonthly Stewing in Rage about it 😭
yeah i agree, and i think that if you sit and think about it for a bit it all starts to unravel. because where do you draw the line? is it entirely arbitrary? if someone simply offends me, are they no longer worthy of pronouns? what determines whether someone "gets" to dictate what pronouns to use?
at the end of it all i can only come to the conclusion that there should be a cultural understanding that we don't get to control the words other people use to describe us. we have our preferences -- it's *always* been rude to call a woman a man, for instance -- but when it comes to preferred self ID i think truth is far more important, ESPECIALLY in journalism.
Yes, it’s hilariously Orwellian that criminals get to dictate our speech. And just wrong that journalistic speech has been so corrupted.
There’s no middle ground.
Orwellian, yes; infuriating, yes, hilarious, not so much.
"hilarious, not so much"
just depends on how morbid your sense of humor is ;P
It’s a fact these are trans women, who are definitionally males, and which was abundantly clear in the story. “She” pronouns are typically used for trans women. What facts are being discarded?
It's not clear to me if they are all males identifying as women. The person whose parents were murdered, for example, I have seen identified as a man and in another source as a woman.
Do you happen to know if any females are involved in this group?
If not, then why bother to keep up the pretense that these are women when they are seriously disturbed violent men? If there are females involved, then I would argue it's even more important to distinguish among the perpetrators so that the public can be adequately informed.
yeah this is it. for me, i understood that Ziz is a biological male, but as for the other people involved? i was under the impression that there were actual biowomen involved (isn't the person who bought the gun a female?) but i couldn't tell you how many. if they're actually *all* transwomen (ie biomen) then that would surprise me, cuz that's not how i interpreted it.
the problem is that it isn't stated in the story. there needs to be a clear statement at the start of who is who, who was born male, who was born female, etc. we're talking about journalism, and journalism is about reporting the truth. the truth is that Ziz is a biological male, and the fact that he hasn't even gone through any sort of actual medical transition -- meaning he absolutely has every bit of hormones that makes males more aggressive than females flowing through his system -- makes the entire thing even more absurd.
"typically" since when?
Well, certainly longer than I’ve been alive anyway.
I’m still confused about who in the story is biologically male and who is actually female.
BARPOD should definitely clarify this in an update.
I think in a more formal context where readers/listeners are expecting objective facts, like a news report or in a court room, sex based pronouns should be used. Between friends or in informal contexts like substack forums, call each other whatever you prefer.
Preferred pronouns make things more confusing and obscure the actual sex of the person - which is the goal of course. Saying, she used the women's changing room doesn't get to the heart of the issue that a male-bodied person used the women't changing room.
It's not difficult to follow.