Did anyone else listen to the latest episode of Gender A Wider Lens? The way Lior talked about gender and sex was fascinating.
The Atlantic article was...hahahaha.
Btw. Riverdale Country is crazy expensive. I thought it was misleading to say it is in the Bronx. I mean. It is. But it may as well be UES. Like these are wealthy kids, which m…
Did anyone else listen to the latest episode of Gender A Wider Lens? The way Lior talked about gender and sex was fascinating.
The Atlantic article was...hahahaha.
Btw. Riverdale Country is crazy expensive. I thought it was misleading to say it is in the Bronx. I mean. It is. But it may as well be UES. Like these are wealthy kids, which means the parents have time for this nonsense
Leor is one of very few people critical of gender-identity ideology who really understands the contradictions within it. He understands queer theory enough to see how it actually clashes with many of the precepts of the current trans rights movement. For instance, "trans women are women" assumes a kind of stable, authentic inner identity that runs directly counter to Judith Butler's ideas in Gender Trouble. As a lefty, I wish he were not so immersed in conservative institutions - not because I think poorly of him as a result of his affiliations, but because we could use more bold, clear, nuanced thinking on the left. Then again, if he were on the left he'd probably be hiding behind partial anonymity, venting on the BARpod chat on a Friday night!
I found that fascinating. It was so insightful. For me though, as I work in the mental health profession, I really liked how he said teenage girls are just doing what they have always done. However. Due to the nature if my work, I have worked with literally hundreds of kids. And while there are plenty of c is gendered girls with severe anxiety, every single nb girl I have worked with - all have very severe anxiety, eating disorders and cutting. All.
So I think.white he is missing is that these kids, I think, are deeply unhappy. And now. It us gender. That is the cause of their unhappiness. That is why they hate their body. Indo mot think it is about queer theiru at all. It is just words to name that feeling.
But if gender were why they felt such unease, the anxiety would dissipate a bit. It does not.
And...ha. About anonymity. I would be shuuuuned at work if they knew I were here. Maybe not fired but career growth? Gone
I had a friend - had because we rarely talk now - who.was self described conservative because, in part, she felt like lwft leaning people will destroy you in a way conservatives wont
Upon lots of reflection, I think.both groups are guilty of this wherever they have more power. So. We are in NYC, where the left has power. Voila. In Nebraska it woyld be the reverse
"teenage girls are just doing what they have always done."
I wish more people would make this connection. We have hundreds of years worth of history of social contagions, and many affecting mainly girls, but this current phenomenon which looks just that, no, no, no, it's not a social contagion, gimme a break.
And the whole "people have to recognize my true, inner, authentic self"--isn't that the theme of so much of children's literature? The Ugly Duckling, Cinderella, Harry Potter, Rudolf the Reindeer, etc., where the character who is vilified and unloved becomes the savior/hero and shows the world what was hidden beneath their lowly exterior?
I just listened to the GAWL episode and was going to write pretty much everything that you already did (thanks!). I would just add: Leor eschews the term "gender ideology" precisely because it isn't just one belief system, including as it does both the postmodernist Butlerites and the gendered-soul people. I'm going to check out some of his writing now to see what else he has to say about that.
I’ve been using “gender ideology” but he made a lot of sense. It’s almost “gender ideologIES,” bc I can’t think of another term that sounds good. Didn’t he & the hosts mention another term? I’ve forgotten it.
I just went back and listened to the last part of the episode, and they do talk about alternative terms like "body affirming care" and "synthetic sex identities," but nothing that would directly replace "gender ideology" (one of them did suggest the plural though). The only substitutes I can think of are all pretty demeaning, like gender nonsense/delusion/obsession. Maybe there should be a BARpod contest to come up with a new term!
What do you think about "gender dogma"? Except that this would imply a unity and coherence of thought that isn't present, as you so aptly captured with the distinction between "the postmodernist Butlerites and the gendered-soul people."
Yeah, there has to be room under the umbrella for all the motivations people might have for believing so strongly in the importance of gender. Maybe "the gender movement" is broad enough? Or maybe "gender mythology" would capture both factions.
Yeah, I'll also recommend that Wider Lens episode. He clearly comes from a background that's philosophically conservative, but he's thoughtful and worth a listen even if you come (as I do) from a different place.
However, I do think he lumped together postwar liberalism, which I think is very much in line with classical philosophical liberalism, and more recent progressive thought, which is more influenced by Marx (distantly) and Foucault et al. (and which I would blame more for some of the messes the left is in now). I also didn't appreciate his dig at the Pragmatists, which I thought was unfair.
Did anyone else listen to the latest episode of Gender A Wider Lens? The way Lior talked about gender and sex was fascinating.
The Atlantic article was...hahahaha.
Btw. Riverdale Country is crazy expensive. I thought it was misleading to say it is in the Bronx. I mean. It is. But it may as well be UES. Like these are wealthy kids, which means the parents have time for this nonsense
ETA: the kid was in middle school not high school
Leor is one of very few people critical of gender-identity ideology who really understands the contradictions within it. He understands queer theory enough to see how it actually clashes with many of the precepts of the current trans rights movement. For instance, "trans women are women" assumes a kind of stable, authentic inner identity that runs directly counter to Judith Butler's ideas in Gender Trouble. As a lefty, I wish he were not so immersed in conservative institutions - not because I think poorly of him as a result of his affiliations, but because we could use more bold, clear, nuanced thinking on the left. Then again, if he were on the left he'd probably be hiding behind partial anonymity, venting on the BARpod chat on a Friday night!
I found that fascinating. It was so insightful. For me though, as I work in the mental health profession, I really liked how he said teenage girls are just doing what they have always done. However. Due to the nature if my work, I have worked with literally hundreds of kids. And while there are plenty of c is gendered girls with severe anxiety, every single nb girl I have worked with - all have very severe anxiety, eating disorders and cutting. All.
So I think.white he is missing is that these kids, I think, are deeply unhappy. And now. It us gender. That is the cause of their unhappiness. That is why they hate their body. Indo mot think it is about queer theiru at all. It is just words to name that feeling.
But if gender were why they felt such unease, the anxiety would dissipate a bit. It does not.
And...ha. About anonymity. I would be shuuuuned at work if they knew I were here. Maybe not fired but career growth? Gone
I had a friend - had because we rarely talk now - who.was self described conservative because, in part, she felt like lwft leaning people will destroy you in a way conservatives wont
Upon lots of reflection, I think.both groups are guilty of this wherever they have more power. So. We are in NYC, where the left has power. Voila. In Nebraska it woyld be the reverse
"teenage girls are just doing what they have always done."
I wish more people would make this connection. We have hundreds of years worth of history of social contagions, and many affecting mainly girls, but this current phenomenon which looks just that, no, no, no, it's not a social contagion, gimme a break.
And the whole "people have to recognize my true, inner, authentic self"--isn't that the theme of so much of children's literature? The Ugly Duckling, Cinderella, Harry Potter, Rudolf the Reindeer, etc., where the character who is vilified and unloved becomes the savior/hero and shows the world what was hidden beneath their lowly exterior?
I just listened to the GAWL episode and was going to write pretty much everything that you already did (thanks!). I would just add: Leor eschews the term "gender ideology" precisely because it isn't just one belief system, including as it does both the postmodernist Butlerites and the gendered-soul people. I'm going to check out some of his writing now to see what else he has to say about that.
I’ve been using “gender ideology” but he made a lot of sense. It’s almost “gender ideologIES,” bc I can’t think of another term that sounds good. Didn’t he & the hosts mention another term? I’ve forgotten it.
I just went back and listened to the last part of the episode, and they do talk about alternative terms like "body affirming care" and "synthetic sex identities," but nothing that would directly replace "gender ideology" (one of them did suggest the plural though). The only substitutes I can think of are all pretty demeaning, like gender nonsense/delusion/obsession. Maybe there should be a BARpod contest to come up with a new term!
What do you think about "gender dogma"? Except that this would imply a unity and coherence of thought that isn't present, as you so aptly captured with the distinction between "the postmodernist Butlerites and the gendered-soul people."
Yeah, there has to be room under the umbrella for all the motivations people might have for believing so strongly in the importance of gender. Maybe "the gender movement" is broad enough? Or maybe "gender mythology" would capture both factions.
Yes. That was one of the most insightful A Wider Lens podcasts. Definitely worth a listen.
Yeah, I'll also recommend that Wider Lens episode. He clearly comes from a background that's philosophically conservative, but he's thoughtful and worth a listen even if you come (as I do) from a different place.
However, I do think he lumped together postwar liberalism, which I think is very much in line with classical philosophical liberalism, and more recent progressive thought, which is more influenced by Marx (distantly) and Foucault et al. (and which I would blame more for some of the messes the left is in now). I also didn't appreciate his dig at the Pragmatists, which I thought was unfair.
Disclaimer: I'm not an actual philosopher.
Yes! Great discussion.