Amen! Such a childish millennial/Gen Z fad to say ‘capitalism’ is the problem. How? But they don’t read or understand history. Most of these people couldn’t even tell you what country we broke from in 1776 or what the Declaration of Independence says. They hate America but they don’t even know what America is.
Amen! Such a childish millennial/Gen Z fad to say ‘capitalism’ is the problem. How? But they don’t read or understand history. Most of these people couldn’t even tell you what country we broke from in 1776 or what the Declaration of Independence says. They hate America but they don’t even know what America is.
I’m not sure I follow your statement. Are you familiar with woke social justice thinking? They want a ‘trigger warning’ on the U.S. constitution, for example. They generally feel that the first amendment is only for those who agree with their views. Wokeism stems originally from Marxist ideology. They don’t deny this. They are fundamentally anti-capitalist and anti-American.
There's a whole lot of Marxists who will tell you that wokism is pretty far from Marxist, whatever you think of actually existing Marxism.
The fact that much of wokism employs very radical-sounding rhetoric while not just being not anti-capitalist, but hostile to class-based analysis and cross-racial working class solidarity is a very big reason that institutions like the centrist wing of the Democratic Party and many corporations have embraced it so readily. From about 2008 to 2020, there's been a major challenge to the neoliberal center from the far left, as represented by movements like Occupy and the Bernie Sanders campaign. "Liberal establishment" types (for lack of a better term) have had a lot of success in weaponizing identity politics to derail this challenge.
Yup. So this time the leftist Marxist view point is stymied because wokism has been embraced by corporatist and centrists.
Pour me another beer.
The last forty years have seen Marxists memorizing their mumbo jumbo, regurgitating it, and then explaining why the working classes aren't just enlightened enoough to understand it.
Woke is fundamentally anti-Marxist. It's something that neoliberalism/late-stage capitalism uses to police people, keep them divided and thus unable to organize in their own interests. It is used by the powers that be to prop up late-stage capitalism. Woke is shoring up your capitalism for you baby.
I think it’s worth mentioning, though, that most actual marxists today are just as frustrated with wokeness as anybody else. There may be a common ancestor but the identitarians and marxists I know are worlds apart. The main difference is that identitarianism doesn’t care about class, poverty, worker safety or the labour movement. Marxists do. Marxists don’t care very much about esthetic, symbolic or representational wins; their focus is economic redistribution. Socialist and Marxist organizations are being blown up by identitarians left and right. That means two things: that some identitarians align themselves with socialism or Marxism, but also that many Marxists are keenly aware of the destructive power of wreckerism as defined by Clementine and consider identitarians to be agents provocateurs with liberal arts graduate degrees.
Agreed, its an important point and some of the best and first intellectual pushback to the "woke" was from WSWS against the 1619 prj. (I'm not sure if it was dealt with here on B&R).
For me, that foundation is important though. because like all of the "deconstructive" movements feminism, critical theory, socialism, etc. Most of them have good Dx, they make important critiques of their particular focus (though sometimes the Dx is ridiculous as well i.e. feminist "hunting ground" pearl clutching or the similar lie that police are hunting black people. The problem usually is in the Rx, solutions that stem from Marxism almost unfailingly have sweeping, unworkable, ridiculous wily coyote-esque plans as solutions to the worlds ills.
So, while I agree that there are important distinctions between the various children of Marxist thought, there are important similarities derived from a deeply flawed intellectual parent framework.
I don’t necessarily agree but it’s interesting to hear your perspective . And yes, that WSWS article about 1619 is an excellent example of the divergence.
No, of course, I wouldn't expect you too and I appreciate your receptiveness. It''s a refreshing and rare treat these days when a difference of opinion needn't devolve into trench fighting. This place is good like that.
A YouTuber I follow blamed capitalism for the current glut of MCU shows and movies. Apparently capitalism gets no credit for creating the MCU in the first place.
Capitalism also gets no credit from these types for the number of independent films out there (and unprecedented ease of independently making films) or how accessible foreign cinema is now.
I was speaking about the phenomenon of Wokeism generally in this comment, not her specifically. As far as her specifically, though I did disagree with some of her far left ideas, I truly respect and value her thoughtful discussion. And points for rational, civil conversation!
I agree that I don't like the whole concept of blaming this vague, undefined term 'capitalism' (since they often don't use it in the way definied by economics).
However, I don't understand the connection between hating capitalism to hating America.
Just want to point out that she's Canadian and America isn't the only country that operates on capitalism. Feels like you're jumping to preconcluded ideas and, for lack of a better word, getting 'triggered' by her comment about capitalism. :P
Amen! Such a childish millennial/Gen Z fad to say ‘capitalism’ is the problem. How? But they don’t read or understand history. Most of these people couldn’t even tell you what country we broke from in 1776 or what the Declaration of Independence says. They hate America but they don’t even know what America is.
It's lazy argument, but the jump you made from hating capitalism to hating America is fascinating.
I’m not sure I follow your statement. Are you familiar with woke social justice thinking? They want a ‘trigger warning’ on the U.S. constitution, for example. They generally feel that the first amendment is only for those who agree with their views. Wokeism stems originally from Marxist ideology. They don’t deny this. They are fundamentally anti-capitalist and anti-American.
There's a whole lot of Marxists who will tell you that wokism is pretty far from Marxist, whatever you think of actually existing Marxism.
The fact that much of wokism employs very radical-sounding rhetoric while not just being not anti-capitalist, but hostile to class-based analysis and cross-racial working class solidarity is a very big reason that institutions like the centrist wing of the Democratic Party and many corporations have embraced it so readily. From about 2008 to 2020, there's been a major challenge to the neoliberal center from the far left, as represented by movements like Occupy and the Bernie Sanders campaign. "Liberal establishment" types (for lack of a better term) have had a lot of success in weaponizing identity politics to derail this challenge.
Yup. So this time the leftist Marxist view point is stymied because wokism has been embraced by corporatist and centrists.
Pour me another beer.
The last forty years have seen Marxists memorizing their mumbo jumbo, regurgitating it, and then explaining why the working classes aren't just enlightened enoough to understand it.
Maybe next time.
Woke is fundamentally anti-Marxist. It's something that neoliberalism/late-stage capitalism uses to police people, keep them divided and thus unable to organize in their own interests. It is used by the powers that be to prop up late-stage capitalism. Woke is shoring up your capitalism for you baby.
Wokeism stems from Marxism? I hadn't heard this before. Can you say more about the origin story?
Critical theory (wokism) originated with the frankfurt school, which is both critical of and rooted in marxism.
I think it’s worth mentioning, though, that most actual marxists today are just as frustrated with wokeness as anybody else. There may be a common ancestor but the identitarians and marxists I know are worlds apart. The main difference is that identitarianism doesn’t care about class, poverty, worker safety or the labour movement. Marxists do. Marxists don’t care very much about esthetic, symbolic or representational wins; their focus is economic redistribution. Socialist and Marxist organizations are being blown up by identitarians left and right. That means two things: that some identitarians align themselves with socialism or Marxism, but also that many Marxists are keenly aware of the destructive power of wreckerism as defined by Clementine and consider identitarians to be agents provocateurs with liberal arts graduate degrees.
Agreed, its an important point and some of the best and first intellectual pushback to the "woke" was from WSWS against the 1619 prj. (I'm not sure if it was dealt with here on B&R).
For me, that foundation is important though. because like all of the "deconstructive" movements feminism, critical theory, socialism, etc. Most of them have good Dx, they make important critiques of their particular focus (though sometimes the Dx is ridiculous as well i.e. feminist "hunting ground" pearl clutching or the similar lie that police are hunting black people. The problem usually is in the Rx, solutions that stem from Marxism almost unfailingly have sweeping, unworkable, ridiculous wily coyote-esque plans as solutions to the worlds ills.
So, while I agree that there are important distinctions between the various children of Marxist thought, there are important similarities derived from a deeply flawed intellectual parent framework.
I don’t necessarily agree but it’s interesting to hear your perspective . And yes, that WSWS article about 1619 is an excellent example of the divergence.
No, of course, I wouldn't expect you too and I appreciate your receptiveness. It''s a refreshing and rare treat these days when a difference of opinion needn't devolve into trench fighting. This place is good like that.
America is a capitalist country.
So is most of the world.
And she's Canadian
Based on my experiences with people making these arguments I don't think it's an unreasonable jump to make.
A YouTuber I follow blamed capitalism for the current glut of MCU shows and movies. Apparently capitalism gets no credit for creating the MCU in the first place.
I feel like some of these people use capitalism in place for the word 'greed' which would better serve their ideological needs.
Capitalism also gets no credit from these types for the number of independent films out there (and unprecedented ease of independently making films) or how accessible foreign cinema is now.
Dude, she's Canadian. That's not her history. You are the one who is being ignorant here.
I was speaking about the phenomenon of Wokeism generally in this comment, not her specifically. As far as her specifically, though I did disagree with some of her far left ideas, I truly respect and value her thoughtful discussion. And points for rational, civil conversation!
I agree that I don't like the whole concept of blaming this vague, undefined term 'capitalism' (since they often don't use it in the way definied by economics).
However, I don't understand the connection between hating capitalism to hating America.
Just want to point out that she's Canadian and America isn't the only country that operates on capitalism. Feels like you're jumping to preconcluded ideas and, for lack of a better word, getting 'triggered' by her comment about capitalism. :P