Every time Katie or anyone else on here talks about being abandoned by friends it hurts my goddamn heart. Katie is a nice person who pretends to be mean and is constantly being treated like shit by mean people who pretend to be nice.
“I care so much and love everyone so deeply that I’m willing to hate and destroy anyone who doesn’t 100% agree with me” seems like an unfortunately strong impulse in people. Kinda like how every ancient culture has some version of witch hunting and human sacrifice.
I was just thinking about the witch thing - we’ll cleanse you of the “devil” even if it kills you… for your own good. Yikes! I hate bullies in any disguise. Look up communal narcissists too - I read that somewhere regarding this sort - it fits nicely.
I get it but I think that's kind of backwards. If these people are the sort of people to engage in this sort of "canceling" behavior over nothing, they weren't friends to begin with.
Perhaps the real question is how many "Manchurian Candidate" friends we all have, just waiting for the chance to spring into action.
I came perilously close to being cancelled by my adult child, whom I had considered my friend for decades. We now maintain a superficial long-distance relationship by avoiding certain topics. If she didn't feel some familial obligation, I believe she would completely cut me out of her life. So I think that real friendships can indeed be destroyed by one person's adherence to a dogmatic, no-debate ideology.
I'm really sorry to hear about that. I was effectively cancelled by my sister seven years ago because I- an actual lesbian who actually sleeps with women and at the time had a long-term girlfriend- asked her not to call me queer. Obviously she 'identifies as queer' despite having had exclusively heterosexual relationships her entire life. She threw a screaming fit at me, then sent me endless messages to 'educate' me until I had to block her number, and has since tried to convince anyone in the family who'll listen that I'm a bigot.
Despite the fact that in the intervening years our mother has been diagnosed with terminal cancer, she still completely refuses to talk to me. I really don't know what it would take to get her to back down. It feels so completely hopeless, and it's hard to not end up worrying that maybe you're in the wrong after all.
That's horrible. I know what you mean. I sometimes think, "Maybe I just need to be more accepting." But then I remember that this "just be nice" attitude is how we got to a place where a vocal minority of straight men (mostly) are endangering the hard-won rights of women and LGB people. Most ordinary people, including children, are so confused by it all that they think sex and gender and sexual orientation are all basically the same thing. It's all so stupid. I hope it doesn't become the new normal.
Jesus. It all gets so twisted, bizarre and complicated. I can see trans activists limiting the rights of biological women, and white wokies invoking a new Jim Crow in the name of Social Justice. I can’t help thinking of Orwell’s Animal Farm. Tyranny happens on both the right and the left. In both cases it’s nasty and needs to be called-out. Makes me think of the YouTube Ryan Long skit wherein he shows how similar white Wokies and actual Nazis have become. But it’s all culturally sanctioned by the media, so somehow it’s ok.
Thanks. I have hope that someday we'll look back on these crazy times and laugh. "Remember when you insisted that you were nonbinary and I tried to tell you that everyone's nonbinary and you threatened to never speak to me again? LOL!" But for now we find less volatile sources of humor.
Good for you! I tried a lot of those arguments (I was sure the kickass Grandma would do the trick!) but made the mistake of putting them in writing, because we were thousands of miles apart and because writing is how I clarify my thinking. It did not go well, so for the time being I will just keep walking on eggshells and hope she comes around on her own. It doesn't help that she has a large "queer family" plus my own extremely tolerant family nearby. At least she still answers my emails and very occasional phone calls.
I'm saving your list of arguments in case I know of anyone who needs ideas.
Had to laugh at #5 because there's always a new one...
Do young women that say they're non-binary not realize that it's not a way to escape female oppression (in a global sense, I think of examples like Malala... saying that you aren't a girl doesn't change how others see you).
I think it’s too easy to think that. It’s that they were your friends and too cowardly to stand by you when it counted. Not that the friendship wasn’t there, just that they were too weak to value it. You may say that defines them as not a friend but I think it’s wrong to say they were not ever your friend. Thats why it’s sad. Like when your family chooses something else over you.
I think it’s too easy to look at the other person and put the blame all on them for being weak. That’s a bit convenient - a bit easy to walk away from. If one chooses to be friends with that type of person repeatedly then there is a dynamic that BOTH people are participating in and BOTH people are responsible for creating
We love people for lots of reasons and people become confused, weak, or broken for all kinds of more reasons. I don’t think there are many simple changes that can remove the element of human tragedy. There are people who become a part of your life just because they’ve been around so long and it hurts when they go.
But yes, I do understand boundaries. Sometimes you have to do that shit to yourself. It doesn’t make it not a tragedy, though.
Guess the definition of "true friend" here is kind of a semantic issue. My feeling in writing this was that anyone who was willing to cancel you over the sorts of things we call "canceling" can't have held the friendship in much esteem to begin with. There's certainly an interesting variety of emergent perspectives on that here.
Anyone who tries to point to 'capitalism' as the cause of a problem or 'overthrowing capitalism' as a possible solution to any problem needs to point to the specific historical, non-capitalist society and time period they are envisioning in which this problem was better. This tic that the self-described 'true leftists' have is just so fucking stupid and lazy that it makes it nearly impossible for me to take anything else they say seriously. In this specific case she's claiming that capitalism 'makes people feel powerless'. What non-capitalist system that has ever existed gives more power and agency over their lives to ordinary people than Capitalism? She's also making a vague claim that things in our society are terrible while speaking from a country that has some of the best living standards of any society that has existed in human history.
Totally agree. On that note, I have ruined (aka saved) more social events than I can count defending capitalism. (Note: I'm available for hire, 2 hour minimum)
The first step is to ask the perp to "define capitalism"--the response you will get is usually a word salad that has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the "right" to be paid $220K to write bad poetry.
Before they can pause for breath, you then patiently explain what capitalism is (an economic system where production decisions are market based, not political) and how capitalism inspires many other goodies, like private property, free labor, a rational legal system and NOT BEING COERCED BY THE STATE TO WORK AT A JOB YOU HATE.
I've become the resident "rightist" (not NPC left) in my social groups over the past 2 years. A common dynamic is a discussion will move into a topic where everyone just assumes something that is patently untrue, or that paints entire swaths of the population incorrectly. A very calm pointing out that "some" disagree (never insert myself personally), usually followed by coddling to prevent a blow up, and if possible pointing out why there might be disagreement or some additional context.
I'll keep this in mind next time it's about "capitalism".
Yeah, don't try to go around telling people that our modern understanding of individual identity and romantic love actually has its roots in bourgeois morality and the upward mobility that resulted from industrialization/capitalism. We gay people get to be gay and define romantic love the way we do because of the same forces that created the middle class. Enjoy marriage for feels? Women's right to choose (their spouse)? Then you might want to try Western colonial capitalism.
They like it, coming from Foucault, but somehow not coming from me.
I think that "capitalism" as used by the guest, and lots and lots of people on the left, is just a shorthand for a number of features of advanced, developed consumer capitalist societies (breakdown of local democracy and local institutions and a perceived loss of accountability among decision makers, concentration of capital in a smaller number of mega multinationals, cost inflation in things that used to be more widely available or were public goods such as education and health care, and blah blah blah). Attacking someone for using a word like "capitalism" in a non-technical, but widely understood way doesn't really advance the conversation... Just like attacking people on the right for using CRT in a non-technical way doesn't really advance the conversation or help us understand each other.
But If we let them get away with defining capitalism as "anything I don't like in modern society" instead of its actual definition--a market-based economic system-- it's impossible to defend it.
If every evil on earth is supposedly caused by "capitalism" then how can we allow this abomination to continue??
Capitalism isn't a market based economic system. It's when ownership of the means of production is concentrated in a non-laboring class called capitalists.
(Not trying to be an ass -- just pointing out that one word can have various technical definitions, and we should attend to what people likely mean instead of critiquing their word choice 😃)
Wait, what? Non-laboring? So when you borrow money to start a business, and you invest in capital--(i.e. the means of production) let say a podcast microphone--you personally dont do any labor, the business just sorta magically happens?
So you pay off your $100 microphone. According to your stated definition, you're now a "capitalist" and you dont have to do any labor. A lot of plumbers who own their own equipment would find that interesting
Exactly. We can't allow this abomination to continue. That is what us communists believe. We believe that the ills of modern society are the inevitable result of late-stage capitalism, and that this abomination can't continue.
PS - If you want to find some examples of societies that weren't late-stage capitalism where ordinary everyday people did better, had more rights, more autonomy, more opportunity etc, I would point to the social democracies of Scandinavia up until recently, the social democracies of New Zealand, England, and Australia up until the early 1980's, and just about every hunter gatherer society ever. Your welcome
My point is: I want these people to explain exactly why capitalism is so evil and what nations with the same diverse population have done better. Capitalism is clearly far, far from perfect. But so is every other system. Capitalism is the best of what humankind has so far come up with. Do the young lefties think Marxism will really work?
Has anyone here who is invoking Marxism actually read Marx? Not a gotcha question, just want to make sure folks actually know what Marx wrote. I am currently reading Marx so by know means am I am expert but I do listen quite a bit to a bunch of Marxist scholars. I am also not an expert in economic theory. But I have had some conversations with some friends IRL who demonize Marx and then confess they have never read him.
Doesn't make the critique very compelling. What I do know so far is that Marxism is an analysis, and a very interesting one. No country has ever had a Marxist government or economy. I believe some have tried to apply some of Marx's analysis to aspects of their economy, but since Marx's analysis is based on a industrial economy, not an agrarian one, it was not successful. While I agree just throwing around "Capitalism is bad" without any nuance is unhelpful, so is saying it about Marxism, especially if you have not read Marx. Maybe the young lefties DO think Marxism would work, depending on what they know of Marxism. But she didn't mention Marxism at all so why anyone is bringing that into the critique makes no sense to me. We do know that there are countries using some democratic socialist principles of public goods governance that seem to address some of the inequality that societies all over the world experience. Maybe this is what young leftists are looking for and what Clemantine is invoking. Katie didn't ask her anything about that so its up in the air what Clemantine really means when she critiques capitalism.
You’re joking right? These people don’t READ!!! That’s the problem. Marx for most of them is a symbol. Read it as: We ‘hate’ capitalism. (Which they really don’t but that’s another topic.) And actually, correction: Some do read...but only leftist ideological books with an agenda. Which isn’t really reading, strictly speaking. Yes: I am completely generalizing here, obviously. Certainly many lefties must read. But as a generational phenomenon I think my feeling here is largely true.
I'm not sure who you think I was referring to, but my comment was about those on this comment thread yammering on about how Marxism won't/doesn't work, with me asking if any of them have actually read Marx. It was not aimed at lefties who have a general critique of capitalism, however well or not well informed that critique is. So no I'm not kidding. If you're going to invoke Marx as a critique of the left, but haven't read any Marx or any Marxist scholars, then I give little to no legitimacy to your critique. I'm sick of Marx being trotted out as the bogeyman from people who have no idea what Marx wrote. I agree far too many shoot their mouths off critiquing capitalism, but people also do it about Marxism. I think it's easier to have a critique of capitalism because we live it day to day and see it at work in real time. It might not be a great or nuanced or intellectually informed critique but it's got more salience, in my opinion, than a critique of Marx from someone who has no idea what Marx actually wrote. I think if commenters here are going to go on about how Marxism could never work, they should have some knowledge of Marx's analysis of capital and get called out if they don't.
Oh, and I AM a leftie, and I AM reading Marx, as I said in my original reply, so, apparently, some of us do actually READ!
Fair enough. I understand. Yes, I have read Marx. No, I am not a Marx expert or scholar. My reference was to the fact that most Woke people have no idea about Marx or what he actually wrote either. It's not me but the Woke person who needs to back up their anti-capitalistic claims. If anyone wants to argue about the evil of capitalism, let's hear a serious, rational argument. But that never happens. It's just like with race: Woke people have zero interest in data or an honest discussion of the reality of race; they just want to call you racist and signal to their friends that they're "good people." There's the 1619 Project, which is basically just fiction revisionist history, and then there are serious scholars like James M. McPherson and Gordon Wood. There is an ocean of difference between them. One is based on pure ideology, the other is based on historical fact and intellectual honesty.
But anyway: I think you and I come from different angles but we land in the same place, not politcally or ideologically but in terms of having knowledge about what you're arguing about. I respect the fact that you feel that way. I agree.
I think Clemantine Morrigan is more of an anarchist than a Marxist. Which might be impractical too, but I think is worth challenging in it's own right, rather than using an off-the-shelf criticism of Soviet communism for someone who doesn't hole that view.
Right. Capitalism certainly has problems and nasty side effects. But name a better system so far! There’s plenty we could and probably should change. There’s also an incredible amount of good in the world brought by the free market.
One could also argue that dismissal of anti-capitalist ideas without engaging with them is "stupid and lazy". One might very well be able to argue that existing contemporary capitalism is in fact the best of all possible worlds and the final stage of economic history. One could also argue that this is Panglossian argument and that it's entirely possible to generalize welfare in a far better way than we're doing currently. But that's an argument worth having.
Also, best living standards in human history? FFS, there have been periods in American history where average living standards were better than they are today. Since 2008, it's been very good for a few techies and not so hot for most people. Hence, why we're seeing all these messy populist movements, right and left.
As to Clemantine Morrigan's argument, economic precarity or outright poverty, things that are on the increase, really do make people feel powerless and take a psychologial toll. albeit, that's probably a more precise argument than simply blaming capitalism broadly.
Has there been any global backsliding? The past fifty years of capitalism have been much better at lifting people out of extreme poverty than in improving the lives of middle class Americans.
I think if we couch the poverty/precarity as being the kind that's linked to elite overproduction (i.e. adjunct profs and foundation staffers fighting over ever fewer opportunities and not, you know, multigenerational destitution), then this analysis is accurate. And yes, this kind of elite overproduction is a feature of the current form of American capitalism.
Except it is a huge extrapolation to assume the cancellers are dealing with poverty or economic insecurity. Perhaps.
They also might just dicks
But also. I wish she would explain if cancel culture was in effect when there were other times of extreme income inequality. What is thr difference between now and those other times.
There was a portion where she goes back and forth between the PMC using cancellation in a self serving way (definitely true), immediately followed by saying cancellation is an artifact of poverty / powerlessness (probably true in a more diffuse way).
The 90s were when federal welfare was just..elimonated. The problem is that the low education jobs that could provide a living - those dried up soon after. And it has been getting worse ever since. But I think of started in the 80s.
I used to feel this way but now I try to walk into things with the thought that the person I’m talking to probably wants a better world and not a worse one and probably also they don’t have any idea of the academic meaning of any of econ lingo. Most people who say “capitalism” mean something like “Perverse Incentives” or “Rent Seeking” or “Monopolistic practices” or what have you. Just because we know what those words, precisely, mean doesn’t mean the other person is using them that way. None of these systems are gods and they were all put in place by us, for us, so I try to help people who talk this way give their best argument and then its usually something pretty reasonable.
Amen! Such a childish millennial/Gen Z fad to say ‘capitalism’ is the problem. How? But they don’t read or understand history. Most of these people couldn’t even tell you what country we broke from in 1776 or what the Declaration of Independence says. They hate America but they don’t even know what America is.
I’m not sure I follow your statement. Are you familiar with woke social justice thinking? They want a ‘trigger warning’ on the U.S. constitution, for example. They generally feel that the first amendment is only for those who agree with their views. Wokeism stems originally from Marxist ideology. They don’t deny this. They are fundamentally anti-capitalist and anti-American.
There's a whole lot of Marxists who will tell you that wokism is pretty far from Marxist, whatever you think of actually existing Marxism.
The fact that much of wokism employs very radical-sounding rhetoric while not just being not anti-capitalist, but hostile to class-based analysis and cross-racial working class solidarity is a very big reason that institutions like the centrist wing of the Democratic Party and many corporations have embraced it so readily. From about 2008 to 2020, there's been a major challenge to the neoliberal center from the far left, as represented by movements like Occupy and the Bernie Sanders campaign. "Liberal establishment" types (for lack of a better term) have had a lot of success in weaponizing identity politics to derail this challenge.
Yup. So this time the leftist Marxist view point is stymied because wokism has been embraced by corporatist and centrists.
Pour me another beer.
The last forty years have seen Marxists memorizing their mumbo jumbo, regurgitating it, and then explaining why the working classes aren't just enlightened enoough to understand it.
Woke is fundamentally anti-Marxist. It's something that neoliberalism/late-stage capitalism uses to police people, keep them divided and thus unable to organize in their own interests. It is used by the powers that be to prop up late-stage capitalism. Woke is shoring up your capitalism for you baby.
I think it’s worth mentioning, though, that most actual marxists today are just as frustrated with wokeness as anybody else. There may be a common ancestor but the identitarians and marxists I know are worlds apart. The main difference is that identitarianism doesn’t care about class, poverty, worker safety or the labour movement. Marxists do. Marxists don’t care very much about esthetic, symbolic or representational wins; their focus is economic redistribution. Socialist and Marxist organizations are being blown up by identitarians left and right. That means two things: that some identitarians align themselves with socialism or Marxism, but also that many Marxists are keenly aware of the destructive power of wreckerism as defined by Clementine and consider identitarians to be agents provocateurs with liberal arts graduate degrees.
A YouTuber I follow blamed capitalism for the current glut of MCU shows and movies. Apparently capitalism gets no credit for creating the MCU in the first place.
Capitalism also gets no credit from these types for the number of independent films out there (and unprecedented ease of independently making films) or how accessible foreign cinema is now.
I was speaking about the phenomenon of Wokeism generally in this comment, not her specifically. As far as her specifically, though I did disagree with some of her far left ideas, I truly respect and value her thoughtful discussion. And points for rational, civil conversation!
I agree that I don't like the whole concept of blaming this vague, undefined term 'capitalism' (since they often don't use it in the way definied by economics).
However, I don't understand the connection between hating capitalism to hating America.
Just want to point out that she's Canadian and America isn't the only country that operates on capitalism. Feels like you're jumping to preconcluded ideas and, for lack of a better word, getting 'triggered' by her comment about capitalism. :P
Thank you for pointing that out. Cancellation might be due to people freling powerless under capitalism. It might also due to being online and not seeing someone's face after coming after them. It might be that we do not have to face the repercussions of being a dick.
And you know. Making a living off podcasts and books? That Is very capitalist- enabled.
And my mom grew up in Communist Poland. There are definitely benefits to lovong in a more socialist society. But cancel culture occurred there too. It is pretty inane.
This was absolutely great (and heartbreaking at times).
I really wonder what percentage of very vocal woke people actually believe what they say and what percentage is just utterly terrified of losing all of their friends.
I assume 90% the latter. I was cancelled in Portland, OR (I don't recommend it) and the number of people who told me to my face "it's just too expensive to know you. I have a job/family/kids/business/etc."
It's like Mafia shit here. There are real and very scary consequences. Especially now that we essentially don't have police. I wonder we they all wanted police abolition...
An ex I hadn't spoken to in ~3 years (broke up when I posted something problematic on Tumblr - this is your first red flag) posted an online callout via Wordpress. It accused me of... everything? ALL the isms, from race/gender/trans/able/etc all the way down to micro stuff like militant veganism (supposedly I would bully people about food choices). There was a one sentence rape accusation in there (bit of burying the lead) but that was dropped when it became clear she had already told that story with a different subject as the perpetrator.
My world went up in flames. The nicest thing people would say *publicly* about me was “I have never personally observed any of those behaviors but I believe all women and marginalized voices…”
Friends were harassed, lost freelance work, and dipped.
Then the telephone game began and rumors of things that weren’t even in the callout started surfacing. Rumored death threats to black political leaders (seems easy to verify?). Rumors I was a serial rapist (no accusations but maybe the victims were too afraid to come forward even anonymously?).
To this day if you google me there are anonymous twitter accounts that “signal boost” my callout even though the links are broken because there aren’t any accusations left. This all began in 2014 and I’m still dealing with the fallout. Katie actually spoke to me a few years back when she was still with the Stranger for a piece she was working on.
My husband had someone make up lies about him because he wouldn't cooperate with her on a book she was writing about the Olympics.
She was sort of a dilettante, without a job, and decided a write a book about Olympic hopefuls. He was a busy coach, and didn't give her the time of day.
She self- published the book, and accused him of sexual harassment (harassing her). Which, if you know him, is sort of funny. She ended up getting sued for making shit up in the book, she lost, and it was pulled.
Thank God this was pre Twitter.
This is one of the reasons that "Believe All Women" was really stupid to me.
Sorry that happened to him. I've heard so many "thank god this was pre Twitter/Tumblr/Facebook" stories. When you are a high profile cancelled person in your town people start coming out of the woodwork to tell you their stories because they'll finally be believed.
I call it the Doppelgänger Social Club. The post-cancelled seeking each other out.
I flipped from "believe all women" to "take serious accusations seriously" overnight. It has given me a pretty good bullshit detector - because you can start to sort out the really suspicious ones early.
I forgot that I kind of had an analog cancellation in '87.
I went to small college before transferring to a big university. Right before I left the small college, a couple girls started a rumour that I had been stealing things all over town and from girls on my floor. If you have read my bike posts in this thread, you know how I feel about thieves. I never freaking steal!!! Don't now, didn't then. I still have no idea why they tried to implicate me.
Anyway, almost everyone I knew, all the friendships I had made at that college just disappeared. Gone.
Ever since then, I have a very small circle of trust.
Horrifying. I hope you have some people who stuck by you or at least that you’ve found solid new friends. I feel such a sense of relief that now that I’ve left those circles, I can and will publicly stand by any friends of mine who experience social abuse like this. There was a time where I wouldn’t have, but that had come to feel unconscionable.
Ohh, are you vegan by any chance? Don't want to get into a huge animal rights debate here, but I'm extremely frustrated by people to defend the "marginalized" all the time, but don't give a damn about farmed animals.
I was strictly vegan at the time. Now more like 90%? They were coming at it from the (popular at the time) notion that veganism is peak white supremacy + fat phobic + ablest + oh the poor people of color who pick vegetables. Because, as we all know, meat packing is done by wealthy white men...
Wow, that is absolutely insane -- especially considering that a number of vegan restaurants are run by Asians or pan-African Rastas. Also, Lizzo, the queen of fat acceptance, I recently learned is vegan!
But yeah, facts don't carry much weight here, I guess.
Funny enough, my two most woke friends have criticized me for “caring more about animals than people.” One brought it up over my donating to animal organizations, the other when I was talking about adopting a special needs cat. I hadn’t expressed anything about caring about animals over people during those conversations.
But I will say, it’s true now. Animals aren’t nearly as annoying.
That kind of sentiment is completely revolting to me on a visceral level. Other than by pointing to a Judeo-Christian worldview that views humans as made in God's image, how do you justify the idea that human life is infinitely more valuable than animal life? To say nothing of the whole climate change argument in favor of veganism and vegetarianism.
Unless we're spending all of our energy and financial resources on whatever class of people is considered most oppressed in the moment, we're racist, transphobic, etc. As if I can't refrain from eating animals and support progressive policies at the same time.
Not that I wanted to get into an animal rights debate here. . . but seriously.
I would guess A LOT. I skirt around the edges of "woke spaces" because of the volunteer work that I do, all the non-profit players I interact with because of my volunteer work, and because Asheville has a very "woke" scene (as well as a lot of conservatism so it makes for very interesting political dynamics and public comment at City Council and County Commission meetings). I am mostly in racial justice circles that center on housing and economics, but gender ideology is all up in there too, and what I see is a lot of "practicing woke speak" to stay in the game and to protect their jobs. They call it "shared language". And it's never defined, just everyone using certain terms and phrases to show that they are okay. And the cloying and obsequiousness is nauseating. I actually heard a moderator of an online racial justice caucus (during the Covid lockdown here) mention that she knew that "asking someone to mute themselves when they are not speaking is an act of dominance and aggression" (didn't say actual violence, thank god). It took all my strength to not roll my eyes and laugh. I only attended this once, but I challenged, very gently, some of the conventions of the proceeding. I suggested that the "wokespeak" was a way of avoiding these "difficult conversations" we are all supposed to be having, and, thoughout the hour and a half, everytime I made a comment I was told - in the most obsequious manner possible - how wise I was. Decided then and there that if I am that "wise" - I was 59 at the time so ageism? (just kidding) - maybe I have graduated from kindergarten and can stop wasting my time with these kinds of "spaces". Never went back. Only went the one time because a friend of mine had said these sessions had gotten much better - my friend was wrong!
It was a long time ago, before I quit reading paper books in favor of kindle with the adjustable font. One book I recall is Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress. I suggest you google historical fiction and/or memoirs based on Chinese Cultural Revolution, then go to Amazon or Goodreads or somewhere to read book reviews.
FYI, there's a "memoir" written in 2013 by a Chinese immigrant to US named Ping Fu, who became a successful software entrepreneur. In reading her "memoir" it was just not believable, to me, an American who's been to China once (not an expert by any means). Many Chinese people called bullshit on her tales. But it wasn't just that she seemed to be exaggerating torture, etc., it was that she always came out smelling like a rose. She was always the smartest, did the best work, etc. So that's another subject but related. Like I could tell from the stories I had read of Chinese "intellectuals" who lived through this time period that her stories lacked credibility. It's an interesting rabbithole to go down. Her book was "Bend Not Break" if you want to research articles about it and her.
Is it even about believing what they say? The issue is the next step on which is genuinely believing that you can’t associate with someone who disagrees with you.
I loved this. The abolition ideology is absurd, in my opinion, but I very much cherish civil debate. On a personal note: Morrigan’s sobriety matters a huge amount here. I’m sober 12 years myself. Our national discourse feels very ‘alcoholic’ right now. Twelve-step recovery helps you grow up and become less narcissistic and self-involved. You begin to mature and sort your life out and help others and genuinely connect to reality. Victimhood is not supported in AA; taking responsibility very much is. Social justice warriors are all about victimhood and immaturity and shutting down dissenting opinions. The two cannot coexist very well. So, good for Morrigan on getting sober and seeing through the lies and woke bullshit!
Thanks for this Michael. My canceller actually took my callout down and included me in her amends when she entered a recovery program. Every year I hear about more and more of the people who harassed me or others in our city entering Twelve-step programs or something similar.
Wow really? That is great to hear and also very interesting on how the AA program is almost like a deprogramming of this victimhood and callout culture mindset.
Definitely. Were I not sober and hadn't been doing AA for the past 12 years I'm certain I'd have a much different (perhaps more victimy) perspective on our modern times. The steps are all about accountability. Personal responsibility. And how could we in AA judge others outside AA? Shit, I know people in The Program who have killed people, ya know? People who have done the worst things you can imagine. And then (and this is crucial) they CHANGED and got sober. They made amends. Which brings up something else: What the F happened to redemption in this country? Now it's like if you said something untoward 15 years ago that's it; you're "out."
That is awesome. Yes. AA definitely teaches the opposite of contemporary SJW culture. (And thank God.) Sadly, despite AA's commitment to political neutrality and disinterest (also thank God), I've noticed more political rants (always from people on the Left) in meetings the past two years. Very annoying. One thing happened in 2020 a few months into the lockdowns on an AA zoom meeting which I found very instructive and interesting.
One of those obnoxious Zoom bombers got on and started yelling about N-word this and N-word that. The meeting sort of paused for a moment and they expelled the jackass. (Probably some obese 15-year-old in a basement somewhere in Wyoming.) Anyway, the person leading the group proceeded to carry on with the meeting...until a young female POC spoke up and said we all needed to have a discussion right then, in real time, about the language we'd just experienced.
So the meeting devolved into said discussion. It lasted about 20 minutes. Many black people spoke up and quite a few white people. It became clear very quickly that there was a generational and gender divide. The few young black women basically said something to the effect of, "This language is harmful and it was clearly aimed at black people. This is the legacy of racism and slavery," etc. Then several older black men in their fifties spoke up and basically said, "Why are we giving the Zoom bomber this much power? It's not about racism, it's about some idiot trying to get a quick rise out of us, which he has clearly now succeeded in doing. Let's just move on. This is AA." Several white people spoke up on both sides and then finally the debacle ended. I laughed, shook my head, and left the meeting.
After getting off I felt like, "I need a meeting now!" But I'm glad I witnessed it. It was very telling.
Michael Mohr
I write a lot about AA, sobriety, writing, culture, etc if anyone wants to subscribe to my Substack: https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
I was not addicted to alcohol, but I had severe adhd for most of my life - which can be an ingrained addiction to avoidance, in my experience, a learned behavior that starts VERY early in life, with similar roots to addiction. And apart from inherited predisposition, a lot of it comes from unmet attachment needs - which may be a result of parents, doctors, teachers and the greater environment not recognizing the needs of the child for many varied reasons that are unique to each person who develops this stress response.
I wonder how much of this cancel culture phenomenon comes from projecting this sort of unprocessed trauma response in mass via social media. kids who were a little different not getting their needs met as children enabling each other and kind of demanding that society cater to the sensitivity of those wounds, instead of finding a way to learn as adults how to recognize and meet those needs for themselves.
I bring up religion a lot on this board, and I think trauma responses to extremist faith and faithlessness itself also throw gasoline onto this phenomena. People have few tools for grounding and little sense of *healthy* secure belonging. Self regulation through prayer and clear defined core values that one shares with others are vital tools for emotional processing, resilience, and forgiveness.
We hate to admit we need recovery, but I agree with Clementine that modern life is a lot more traumatizing than we admit. The US has deplorable health conditions compared to other developed nations. A nation cannot have so much chronic illness AND be successfully meeting the needs of people, especially children. Growing up without your unmet needs even being acknowledged is traumatizing. It’s the trauma of neglect. If it’s not capitalism, it’s something. We only have to look at the health of other developed nations, and not compare to other times in history, to see that some how we are neglecting ourselves in our culture.
That being said, calling out culture doesn’t seem to be making anything better. I have a lot of friends in the interior of the country who are living better lives MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS.
I was diagnosed with ADHD later in life. May I ask if any treatments were helpful for you? I’ve tried med after med, then none, then back to ones I’ve tried before. I’m pretty lousy at being able to tell if anything helps or not.
(I ask this with the understanding that everyone is different & there’s no one way to treat ADHD, though overall stimulants are shown to be helpful for most, though not all people.)
It’s kind of like compulsive avoidance, and it’s a behavior like substance abuse, that gets worse with time, but which also does respond to willingness, interventions, knowledgeable support (which thank God there is now) and... grace .
I also think there is inherited predisposition and co morbid issues predispose one to developing distraction as a coping mechanism for overwhelm which can be provoked by sensory and auto immune and relational issues. I also think neuro-muscular issues like hypotonia can predispose us - like you said there are infinite reasons one starts Developing this automatic stress response- my experience though is that one can learn to observe the nervous system stress responses and build new responses. There is no switch though, it’s not switched off, and one doesn’t wake up and start making different decisions, it’s literally retraining the nervous system you have- which still might include all the co morbid issues that initially provoked the stress response, we can get better at attending those issues and not automatically and unconsciously avoiding.
I was diagnosed over a decade ago - and I wish adults could go to the interventions that children go to - I have done meds, physical therapy for hypotonia and motor planning, adhd coaching and finally somatic experiencing trauma therapy- all of that helped to build the mind body connection bc I think adhd starts as disassociation in infancy or in utero.
By far the most impactful of all those interventions was somatic experiencing trauma therapy.
*Dissociation* - I write with a ton of mistakes. Dyslexia, I can’t be bothered to correct it all for internet comment sections. That used to hold me back from writing bc I was so afraid of what others would think. Now🤷🏻♀️ yeah, my mistakes really bother some people. And that is there problem😉
Ha. I understand. It kills me when I write a thread on Twitter and realize there's a mistake in the middle. I can't ignore it, I have to go back and acknowledge it's there or some asshat will come along and point it out.
Wow, I haven't heard of most of that aside from meds, PT, and coaching. I have no history of trauma other than having an alcoholic father (the military got him to dry out, and he tried AA but didn't go through the whole thing so I suppose he's been a dry drunk for decades). He never hit me or my mother but he had a temper, we butted heads sometimes when I was older because I'm stubborn like him, much to my enabling mom's annoyance. He's a chronic hoarder, disabled... and now I'm realizing this sounds way more traumatic than I originally intended.
I got properly assessed by an ADHD specialist (psychologist), and did therapy throughout the pandemic with telehealth (assessment was in-person because of what it entails). I often feel like coaching would be helpful, but it's not covered by insurance & I don't know how people pay coaches thousands of dollars. I see an osteopath that specializes in psych stuff for my meds, but kind of came to the conclusion that it's pretty much going to be up to me to build the structure I need to do more with my abilities (I did well in school and I was just under what they'd call "gifted," meaning I always knew I wasn't achieving what I could if I had better executive functioning skills). Masked it in school with perfectionist traits, which promptly crumbled under me in college, though I got through and continued on to get a useless masters when I was feeling bad about myself (when I was floundering after college).
Okay, I'm rambling on now, which is my most hyper trait. I was all over the place, & hold no expectation it makes any sense to others. :)
Every time Katie or anyone else on here talks about being abandoned by friends it hurts my goddamn heart. Katie is a nice person who pretends to be mean and is constantly being treated like shit by mean people who pretend to be nice.
Very well said. I don’t know what’s wrong with these “nice people” but they sure are horrible.
“I care so much and love everyone so deeply that I’m willing to hate and destroy anyone who doesn’t 100% agree with me” seems like an unfortunately strong impulse in people. Kinda like how every ancient culture has some version of witch hunting and human sacrifice.
I was just thinking about the witch thing - we’ll cleanse you of the “devil” even if it kills you… for your own good. Yikes! I hate bullies in any disguise. Look up communal narcissists too - I read that somewhere regarding this sort - it fits nicely.
Communal narcissism: I like that phrase! Sounds like a perfect fit for Wokies.
I get it but I think that's kind of backwards. If these people are the sort of people to engage in this sort of "canceling" behavior over nothing, they weren't friends to begin with.
Perhaps the real question is how many "Manchurian Candidate" friends we all have, just waiting for the chance to spring into action.
I came perilously close to being cancelled by my adult child, whom I had considered my friend for decades. We now maintain a superficial long-distance relationship by avoiding certain topics. If she didn't feel some familial obligation, I believe she would completely cut me out of her life. So I think that real friendships can indeed be destroyed by one person's adherence to a dogmatic, no-debate ideology.
I'm really sorry to hear about that. I was effectively cancelled by my sister seven years ago because I- an actual lesbian who actually sleeps with women and at the time had a long-term girlfriend- asked her not to call me queer. Obviously she 'identifies as queer' despite having had exclusively heterosexual relationships her entire life. She threw a screaming fit at me, then sent me endless messages to 'educate' me until I had to block her number, and has since tried to convince anyone in the family who'll listen that I'm a bigot.
Despite the fact that in the intervening years our mother has been diagnosed with terminal cancer, she still completely refuses to talk to me. I really don't know what it would take to get her to back down. It feels so completely hopeless, and it's hard to not end up worrying that maybe you're in the wrong after all.
That's horrible. I know what you mean. I sometimes think, "Maybe I just need to be more accepting." But then I remember that this "just be nice" attitude is how we got to a place where a vocal minority of straight men (mostly) are endangering the hard-won rights of women and LGB people. Most ordinary people, including children, are so confused by it all that they think sex and gender and sexual orientation are all basically the same thing. It's all so stupid. I hope it doesn't become the new normal.
I'm sorry. That's a horrible family situation to deal with.
Jesus. It all gets so twisted, bizarre and complicated. I can see trans activists limiting the rights of biological women, and white wokies invoking a new Jim Crow in the name of Social Justice. I can’t help thinking of Orwell’s Animal Farm. Tyranny happens on both the right and the left. In both cases it’s nasty and needs to be called-out. Makes me think of the YouTube Ryan Long skit wherein he shows how similar white Wokies and actual Nazis have become. But it’s all culturally sanctioned by the media, so somehow it’s ok.
So sorry to hear that.
Thanks. I have hope that someday we'll look back on these crazy times and laugh. "Remember when you insisted that you were nonbinary and I tried to tell you that everyone's nonbinary and you threatened to never speak to me again? LOL!" But for now we find less volatile sources of humor.
Good for you! I tried a lot of those arguments (I was sure the kickass Grandma would do the trick!) but made the mistake of putting them in writing, because we were thousands of miles apart and because writing is how I clarify my thinking. It did not go well, so for the time being I will just keep walking on eggshells and hope she comes around on her own. It doesn't help that she has a large "queer family" plus my own extremely tolerant family nearby. At least she still answers my emails and very occasional phone calls.
Those are great arguments that I may try using (hopefully it won't come to that, but gotta be prepared).
I'm saving your list of arguments in case I know of anyone who needs ideas.
Had to laugh at #5 because there's always a new one...
Do young women that say they're non-binary not realize that it's not a way to escape female oppression (in a global sense, I think of examples like Malala... saying that you aren't a girl doesn't change how others see you).
I love your list. I have also had success with "look at all the non-conformists non-conforming in exactly the same way, isn't that interesting."
I think it’s too easy to think that. It’s that they were your friends and too cowardly to stand by you when it counted. Not that the friendship wasn’t there, just that they were too weak to value it. You may say that defines them as not a friend but I think it’s wrong to say they were not ever your friend. Thats why it’s sad. Like when your family chooses something else over you.
I think it’s too easy to look at the other person and put the blame all on them for being weak. That’s a bit convenient - a bit easy to walk away from. If one chooses to be friends with that type of person repeatedly then there is a dynamic that BOTH people are participating in and BOTH people are responsible for creating
We love people for lots of reasons and people become confused, weak, or broken for all kinds of more reasons. I don’t think there are many simple changes that can remove the element of human tragedy. There are people who become a part of your life just because they’ve been around so long and it hurts when they go.
But yes, I do understand boundaries. Sometimes you have to do that shit to yourself. It doesn’t make it not a tragedy, though.
Right??! I’m tempted to think they were never truly friends to begin with...but maybe I’m wrong
Guess the definition of "true friend" here is kind of a semantic issue. My feeling in writing this was that anyone who was willing to cancel you over the sorts of things we call "canceling" can't have held the friendship in much esteem to begin with. There's certainly an interesting variety of emergent perspectives on that here.
Maybe the whole concept of friendship in younger generations during the social media age is fundamentally changing.
Anyone who tries to point to 'capitalism' as the cause of a problem or 'overthrowing capitalism' as a possible solution to any problem needs to point to the specific historical, non-capitalist society and time period they are envisioning in which this problem was better. This tic that the self-described 'true leftists' have is just so fucking stupid and lazy that it makes it nearly impossible for me to take anything else they say seriously. In this specific case she's claiming that capitalism 'makes people feel powerless'. What non-capitalist system that has ever existed gives more power and agency over their lives to ordinary people than Capitalism? She's also making a vague claim that things in our society are terrible while speaking from a country that has some of the best living standards of any society that has existed in human history.
Totally agree. On that note, I have ruined (aka saved) more social events than I can count defending capitalism. (Note: I'm available for hire, 2 hour minimum)
The first step is to ask the perp to "define capitalism"--the response you will get is usually a word salad that has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with the "right" to be paid $220K to write bad poetry.
Before they can pause for breath, you then patiently explain what capitalism is (an economic system where production decisions are market based, not political) and how capitalism inspires many other goodies, like private property, free labor, a rational legal system and NOT BEING COERCED BY THE STATE TO WORK AT A JOB YOU HATE.
Then ask, which of these dont they like? And why?
I've become the resident "rightist" (not NPC left) in my social groups over the past 2 years. A common dynamic is a discussion will move into a topic where everyone just assumes something that is patently untrue, or that paints entire swaths of the population incorrectly. A very calm pointing out that "some" disagree (never insert myself personally), usually followed by coddling to prevent a blow up, and if possible pointing out why there might be disagreement or some additional context.
I'll keep this in mind next time it's about "capitalism".
I never do the coddling part or saying some so I just dig myself a giant ditch and jump in.
Lol nice use of “perp”.
Yeah, don't try to go around telling people that our modern understanding of individual identity and romantic love actually has its roots in bourgeois morality and the upward mobility that resulted from industrialization/capitalism. We gay people get to be gay and define romantic love the way we do because of the same forces that created the middle class. Enjoy marriage for feels? Women's right to choose (their spouse)? Then you might want to try Western colonial capitalism.
They like it, coming from Foucault, but somehow not coming from me.
Oh wow, ya I bet you're like a walking record scratch when you break that out at parties.
I think that "capitalism" as used by the guest, and lots and lots of people on the left, is just a shorthand for a number of features of advanced, developed consumer capitalist societies (breakdown of local democracy and local institutions and a perceived loss of accountability among decision makers, concentration of capital in a smaller number of mega multinationals, cost inflation in things that used to be more widely available or were public goods such as education and health care, and blah blah blah). Attacking someone for using a word like "capitalism" in a non-technical, but widely understood way doesn't really advance the conversation... Just like attacking people on the right for using CRT in a non-technical way doesn't really advance the conversation or help us understand each other.
But If we let them get away with defining capitalism as "anything I don't like in modern society" instead of its actual definition--a market-based economic system-- it's impossible to defend it.
If every evil on earth is supposedly caused by "capitalism" then how can we allow this abomination to continue??
Capitalism isn't a market based economic system. It's when ownership of the means of production is concentrated in a non-laboring class called capitalists.
(Not trying to be an ass -- just pointing out that one word can have various technical definitions, and we should attend to what people likely mean instead of critiquing their word choice 😃)
Wait, what? Non-laboring? So when you borrow money to start a business, and you invest in capital--(i.e. the means of production) let say a podcast microphone--you personally dont do any labor, the business just sorta magically happens?
If you've borrowed the money for it, the bankers are the owner of your microphone and hence the capitalist in the situation 😃
So you pay off your $100 microphone. According to your stated definition, you're now a "capitalist" and you dont have to do any labor. A lot of plumbers who own their own equipment would find that interesting
Exactly. We can't allow this abomination to continue. That is what us communists believe. We believe that the ills of modern society are the inevitable result of late-stage capitalism, and that this abomination can't continue.
PS - If you want to find some examples of societies that weren't late-stage capitalism where ordinary everyday people did better, had more rights, more autonomy, more opportunity etc, I would point to the social democracies of Scandinavia up until recently, the social democracies of New Zealand, England, and Australia up until the early 1980's, and just about every hunter gatherer society ever. Your welcome
I wouldn't compare your ideal commie society to hunter-gatherers if I were you, unless you think food insecurity is a selling point.
I read all of your comments in H Jon Benjamin's voice
My point is: I want these people to explain exactly why capitalism is so evil and what nations with the same diverse population have done better. Capitalism is clearly far, far from perfect. But so is every other system. Capitalism is the best of what humankind has so far come up with. Do the young lefties think Marxism will really work?
Has anyone here who is invoking Marxism actually read Marx? Not a gotcha question, just want to make sure folks actually know what Marx wrote. I am currently reading Marx so by know means am I am expert but I do listen quite a bit to a bunch of Marxist scholars. I am also not an expert in economic theory. But I have had some conversations with some friends IRL who demonize Marx and then confess they have never read him.
Doesn't make the critique very compelling. What I do know so far is that Marxism is an analysis, and a very interesting one. No country has ever had a Marxist government or economy. I believe some have tried to apply some of Marx's analysis to aspects of their economy, but since Marx's analysis is based on a industrial economy, not an agrarian one, it was not successful. While I agree just throwing around "Capitalism is bad" without any nuance is unhelpful, so is saying it about Marxism, especially if you have not read Marx. Maybe the young lefties DO think Marxism would work, depending on what they know of Marxism. But she didn't mention Marxism at all so why anyone is bringing that into the critique makes no sense to me. We do know that there are countries using some democratic socialist principles of public goods governance that seem to address some of the inequality that societies all over the world experience. Maybe this is what young leftists are looking for and what Clemantine is invoking. Katie didn't ask her anything about that so its up in the air what Clemantine really means when she critiques capitalism.
You’re joking right? These people don’t READ!!! That’s the problem. Marx for most of them is a symbol. Read it as: We ‘hate’ capitalism. (Which they really don’t but that’s another topic.) And actually, correction: Some do read...but only leftist ideological books with an agenda. Which isn’t really reading, strictly speaking. Yes: I am completely generalizing here, obviously. Certainly many lefties must read. But as a generational phenomenon I think my feeling here is largely true.
I'm not sure who you think I was referring to, but my comment was about those on this comment thread yammering on about how Marxism won't/doesn't work, with me asking if any of them have actually read Marx. It was not aimed at lefties who have a general critique of capitalism, however well or not well informed that critique is. So no I'm not kidding. If you're going to invoke Marx as a critique of the left, but haven't read any Marx or any Marxist scholars, then I give little to no legitimacy to your critique. I'm sick of Marx being trotted out as the bogeyman from people who have no idea what Marx wrote. I agree far too many shoot their mouths off critiquing capitalism, but people also do it about Marxism. I think it's easier to have a critique of capitalism because we live it day to day and see it at work in real time. It might not be a great or nuanced or intellectually informed critique but it's got more salience, in my opinion, than a critique of Marx from someone who has no idea what Marx actually wrote. I think if commenters here are going to go on about how Marxism could never work, they should have some knowledge of Marx's analysis of capital and get called out if they don't.
Oh, and I AM a leftie, and I AM reading Marx, as I said in my original reply, so, apparently, some of us do actually READ!
Fair enough. I understand. Yes, I have read Marx. No, I am not a Marx expert or scholar. My reference was to the fact that most Woke people have no idea about Marx or what he actually wrote either. It's not me but the Woke person who needs to back up their anti-capitalistic claims. If anyone wants to argue about the evil of capitalism, let's hear a serious, rational argument. But that never happens. It's just like with race: Woke people have zero interest in data or an honest discussion of the reality of race; they just want to call you racist and signal to their friends that they're "good people." There's the 1619 Project, which is basically just fiction revisionist history, and then there are serious scholars like James M. McPherson and Gordon Wood. There is an ocean of difference between them. One is based on pure ideology, the other is based on historical fact and intellectual honesty.
But anyway: I think you and I come from different angles but we land in the same place, not politcally or ideologically but in terms of having knowledge about what you're arguing about. I respect the fact that you feel that way. I agree.
Michael
I think Clemantine Morrigan is more of an anarchist than a Marxist. Which might be impractical too, but I think is worth challenging in it's own right, rather than using an off-the-shelf criticism of Soviet communism for someone who doesn't hole that view.
Then point to a functional anarchist society.
Its good to point out problems with our society. But don 't say "because capitalism".
Right. Capitalism certainly has problems and nasty side effects. But name a better system so far! There’s plenty we could and probably should change. There’s also an incredible amount of good in the world brought by the free market.
Yeah. I got that sense too and I truly do not understand what anarchists want. Or how it is supposed to work
I always just think "chaos."
Yeah that’s probably true--she sounds more extreme left than the average
Yeah that’s probably true--she sounds more extreme left than the average
One could also argue that dismissal of anti-capitalist ideas without engaging with them is "stupid and lazy". One might very well be able to argue that existing contemporary capitalism is in fact the best of all possible worlds and the final stage of economic history. One could also argue that this is Panglossian argument and that it's entirely possible to generalize welfare in a far better way than we're doing currently. But that's an argument worth having.
Also, best living standards in human history? FFS, there have been periods in American history where average living standards were better than they are today. Since 2008, it's been very good for a few techies and not so hot for most people. Hence, why we're seeing all these messy populist movements, right and left.
As to Clemantine Morrigan's argument, economic precarity or outright poverty, things that are on the increase, really do make people feel powerless and take a psychologial toll. albeit, that's probably a more precise argument than simply blaming capitalism broadly.
Has there been any global backsliding? The past fifty years of capitalism have been much better at lifting people out of extreme poverty than in improving the lives of middle class Americans.
I think if we couch the poverty/precarity as being the kind that's linked to elite overproduction (i.e. adjunct profs and foundation staffers fighting over ever fewer opportunities and not, you know, multigenerational destitution), then this analysis is accurate. And yes, this kind of elite overproduction is a feature of the current form of American capitalism.
Except it is a huge extrapolation to assume the cancellers are dealing with poverty or economic insecurity. Perhaps.
They also might just dicks
But also. I wish she would explain if cancel culture was in effect when there were other times of extreme income inequality. What is thr difference between now and those other times.
There was a portion where she goes back and forth between the PMC using cancellation in a self serving way (definitely true), immediately followed by saying cancellation is an artifact of poverty / powerlessness (probably true in a more diffuse way).
Clementine Morgan doesn't live in the USA she lives in Canada.
The 90s were when federal welfare was just..elimonated. The problem is that the low education jobs that could provide a living - those dried up soon after. And it has been getting worse ever since. But I think of started in the 80s.
I used to feel this way but now I try to walk into things with the thought that the person I’m talking to probably wants a better world and not a worse one and probably also they don’t have any idea of the academic meaning of any of econ lingo. Most people who say “capitalism” mean something like “Perverse Incentives” or “Rent Seeking” or “Monopolistic practices” or what have you. Just because we know what those words, precisely, mean doesn’t mean the other person is using them that way. None of these systems are gods and they were all put in place by us, for us, so I try to help people who talk this way give their best argument and then its usually something pretty reasonable.
Amen! Such a childish millennial/Gen Z fad to say ‘capitalism’ is the problem. How? But they don’t read or understand history. Most of these people couldn’t even tell you what country we broke from in 1776 or what the Declaration of Independence says. They hate America but they don’t even know what America is.
It's lazy argument, but the jump you made from hating capitalism to hating America is fascinating.
I’m not sure I follow your statement. Are you familiar with woke social justice thinking? They want a ‘trigger warning’ on the U.S. constitution, for example. They generally feel that the first amendment is only for those who agree with their views. Wokeism stems originally from Marxist ideology. They don’t deny this. They are fundamentally anti-capitalist and anti-American.
There's a whole lot of Marxists who will tell you that wokism is pretty far from Marxist, whatever you think of actually existing Marxism.
The fact that much of wokism employs very radical-sounding rhetoric while not just being not anti-capitalist, but hostile to class-based analysis and cross-racial working class solidarity is a very big reason that institutions like the centrist wing of the Democratic Party and many corporations have embraced it so readily. From about 2008 to 2020, there's been a major challenge to the neoliberal center from the far left, as represented by movements like Occupy and the Bernie Sanders campaign. "Liberal establishment" types (for lack of a better term) have had a lot of success in weaponizing identity politics to derail this challenge.
Yup. So this time the leftist Marxist view point is stymied because wokism has been embraced by corporatist and centrists.
Pour me another beer.
The last forty years have seen Marxists memorizing their mumbo jumbo, regurgitating it, and then explaining why the working classes aren't just enlightened enoough to understand it.
Maybe next time.
Woke is fundamentally anti-Marxist. It's something that neoliberalism/late-stage capitalism uses to police people, keep them divided and thus unable to organize in their own interests. It is used by the powers that be to prop up late-stage capitalism. Woke is shoring up your capitalism for you baby.
Wokeism stems from Marxism? I hadn't heard this before. Can you say more about the origin story?
Critical theory (wokism) originated with the frankfurt school, which is both critical of and rooted in marxism.
I think it’s worth mentioning, though, that most actual marxists today are just as frustrated with wokeness as anybody else. There may be a common ancestor but the identitarians and marxists I know are worlds apart. The main difference is that identitarianism doesn’t care about class, poverty, worker safety or the labour movement. Marxists do. Marxists don’t care very much about esthetic, symbolic or representational wins; their focus is economic redistribution. Socialist and Marxist organizations are being blown up by identitarians left and right. That means two things: that some identitarians align themselves with socialism or Marxism, but also that many Marxists are keenly aware of the destructive power of wreckerism as defined by Clementine and consider identitarians to be agents provocateurs with liberal arts graduate degrees.
America is a capitalist country.
So is most of the world.
And she's Canadian
Based on my experiences with people making these arguments I don't think it's an unreasonable jump to make.
A YouTuber I follow blamed capitalism for the current glut of MCU shows and movies. Apparently capitalism gets no credit for creating the MCU in the first place.
I feel like some of these people use capitalism in place for the word 'greed' which would better serve their ideological needs.
Capitalism also gets no credit from these types for the number of independent films out there (and unprecedented ease of independently making films) or how accessible foreign cinema is now.
Dude, she's Canadian. That's not her history. You are the one who is being ignorant here.
I was speaking about the phenomenon of Wokeism generally in this comment, not her specifically. As far as her specifically, though I did disagree with some of her far left ideas, I truly respect and value her thoughtful discussion. And points for rational, civil conversation!
I agree that I don't like the whole concept of blaming this vague, undefined term 'capitalism' (since they often don't use it in the way definied by economics).
However, I don't understand the connection between hating capitalism to hating America.
Just want to point out that she's Canadian and America isn't the only country that operates on capitalism. Feels like you're jumping to preconcluded ideas and, for lack of a better word, getting 'triggered' by her comment about capitalism. :P
Thank you for pointing that out. Cancellation might be due to people freling powerless under capitalism. It might also due to being online and not seeing someone's face after coming after them. It might be that we do not have to face the repercussions of being a dick.
And you know. Making a living off podcasts and books? That Is very capitalist- enabled.
And my mom grew up in Communist Poland. There are definitely benefits to lovong in a more socialist society. But cancel culture occurred there too. It is pretty inane.
Yeah, the whole “every problem can be traced back to capitalism” shtick shows that someone is probably low IQ and not worth dealing with.
Straaaaaaw man
Okay thank you lol it's so lazy to me
This was absolutely great (and heartbreaking at times).
I really wonder what percentage of very vocal woke people actually believe what they say and what percentage is just utterly terrified of losing all of their friends.
I assume 90% the latter. I was cancelled in Portland, OR (I don't recommend it) and the number of people who told me to my face "it's just too expensive to know you. I have a job/family/kids/business/etc."
It's like Mafia shit here. There are real and very scary consequences. Especially now that we essentially don't have police. I wonder we they all wanted police abolition...
An ex I hadn't spoken to in ~3 years (broke up when I posted something problematic on Tumblr - this is your first red flag) posted an online callout via Wordpress. It accused me of... everything? ALL the isms, from race/gender/trans/able/etc all the way down to micro stuff like militant veganism (supposedly I would bully people about food choices). There was a one sentence rape accusation in there (bit of burying the lead) but that was dropped when it became clear she had already told that story with a different subject as the perpetrator.
My world went up in flames. The nicest thing people would say *publicly* about me was “I have never personally observed any of those behaviors but I believe all women and marginalized voices…”
Friends were harassed, lost freelance work, and dipped.
Then the telephone game began and rumors of things that weren’t even in the callout started surfacing. Rumored death threats to black political leaders (seems easy to verify?). Rumors I was a serial rapist (no accusations but maybe the victims were too afraid to come forward even anonymously?).
To this day if you google me there are anonymous twitter accounts that “signal boost” my callout even though the links are broken because there aren’t any accusations left. This all began in 2014 and I’m still dealing with the fallout. Katie actually spoke to me a few years back when she was still with the Stranger for a piece she was working on.
My husband had someone make up lies about him because he wouldn't cooperate with her on a book she was writing about the Olympics.
She was sort of a dilettante, without a job, and decided a write a book about Olympic hopefuls. He was a busy coach, and didn't give her the time of day.
She self- published the book, and accused him of sexual harassment (harassing her). Which, if you know him, is sort of funny. She ended up getting sued for making shit up in the book, she lost, and it was pulled.
Thank God this was pre Twitter.
This is one of the reasons that "Believe All Women" was really stupid to me.
Sorry that happened to him. I've heard so many "thank god this was pre Twitter/Tumblr/Facebook" stories. When you are a high profile cancelled person in your town people start coming out of the woodwork to tell you their stories because they'll finally be believed.
I call it the Doppelgänger Social Club. The post-cancelled seeking each other out.
I flipped from "believe all women" to "take serious accusations seriously" overnight. It has given me a pretty good bullshit detector - because you can start to sort out the really suspicious ones early.
Oh yeah!!
I forgot that I kind of had an analog cancellation in '87.
I went to small college before transferring to a big university. Right before I left the small college, a couple girls started a rumour that I had been stealing things all over town and from girls on my floor. If you have read my bike posts in this thread, you know how I feel about thieves. I never freaking steal!!! Don't now, didn't then. I still have no idea why they tried to implicate me.
Anyway, almost everyone I knew, all the friendships I had made at that college just disappeared. Gone.
Ever since then, I have a very small circle of trust.
Horrifying. I hope you have some people who stuck by you or at least that you’ve found solid new friends. I feel such a sense of relief that now that I’ve left those circles, I can and will publicly stand by any friends of mine who experience social abuse like this. There was a time where I wouldn’t have, but that had come to feel unconscionable.
Has*
Jesus. That’s awful. The brazen rape and death threat false accusations are particularly harrowing. I’m so sorry you experienced any of that.
Ohh, are you vegan by any chance? Don't want to get into a huge animal rights debate here, but I'm extremely frustrated by people to defend the "marginalized" all the time, but don't give a damn about farmed animals.
I was strictly vegan at the time. Now more like 90%? They were coming at it from the (popular at the time) notion that veganism is peak white supremacy + fat phobic + ablest + oh the poor people of color who pick vegetables. Because, as we all know, meat packing is done by wealthy white men...
Wow, that is absolutely insane -- especially considering that a number of vegan restaurants are run by Asians or pan-African Rastas. Also, Lizzo, the queen of fat acceptance, I recently learned is vegan!
But yeah, facts don't carry much weight here, I guess.
Funny enough, my two most woke friends have criticized me for “caring more about animals than people.” One brought it up over my donating to animal organizations, the other when I was talking about adopting a special needs cat. I hadn’t expressed anything about caring about animals over people during those conversations.
But I will say, it’s true now. Animals aren’t nearly as annoying.
Ha! I do agree with that statement.
That kind of sentiment is completely revolting to me on a visceral level. Other than by pointing to a Judeo-Christian worldview that views humans as made in God's image, how do you justify the idea that human life is infinitely more valuable than animal life? To say nothing of the whole climate change argument in favor of veganism and vegetarianism.
Unless we're spending all of our energy and financial resources on whatever class of people is considered most oppressed in the moment, we're racist, transphobic, etc. As if I can't refrain from eating animals and support progressive policies at the same time.
Not that I wanted to get into an animal rights debate here. . . but seriously.
I would guess A LOT. I skirt around the edges of "woke spaces" because of the volunteer work that I do, all the non-profit players I interact with because of my volunteer work, and because Asheville has a very "woke" scene (as well as a lot of conservatism so it makes for very interesting political dynamics and public comment at City Council and County Commission meetings). I am mostly in racial justice circles that center on housing and economics, but gender ideology is all up in there too, and what I see is a lot of "practicing woke speak" to stay in the game and to protect their jobs. They call it "shared language". And it's never defined, just everyone using certain terms and phrases to show that they are okay. And the cloying and obsequiousness is nauseating. I actually heard a moderator of an online racial justice caucus (during the Covid lockdown here) mention that she knew that "asking someone to mute themselves when they are not speaking is an act of dominance and aggression" (didn't say actual violence, thank god). It took all my strength to not roll my eyes and laugh. I only attended this once, but I challenged, very gently, some of the conventions of the proceeding. I suggested that the "wokespeak" was a way of avoiding these "difficult conversations" we are all supposed to be having, and, thoughout the hour and a half, everytime I made a comment I was told - in the most obsequious manner possible - how wise I was. Decided then and there that if I am that "wise" - I was 59 at the time so ageism? (just kidding) - maybe I have graduated from kindergarten and can stop wasting my time with these kinds of "spaces". Never went back. Only went the one time because a friend of mine had said these sessions had gotten much better - my friend was wrong!
This is basically how Maoism played out culturally. Coercion not persuasion.
Yes. Like what I'm read from memoirs and historical fiction of Cultural Revolution.
It was a long time ago, before I quit reading paper books in favor of kindle with the adjustable font. One book I recall is Balzac and the Little Chinese Seamstress. I suggest you google historical fiction and/or memoirs based on Chinese Cultural Revolution, then go to Amazon or Goodreads or somewhere to read book reviews.
FYI, there's a "memoir" written in 2013 by a Chinese immigrant to US named Ping Fu, who became a successful software entrepreneur. In reading her "memoir" it was just not believable, to me, an American who's been to China once (not an expert by any means). Many Chinese people called bullshit on her tales. But it wasn't just that she seemed to be exaggerating torture, etc., it was that she always came out smelling like a rose. She was always the smartest, did the best work, etc. So that's another subject but related. Like I could tell from the stories I had read of Chinese "intellectuals" who lived through this time period that her stories lacked credibility. It's an interesting rabbithole to go down. Her book was "Bend Not Break" if you want to research articles about it and her.
Is it even about believing what they say? The issue is the next step on which is genuinely believing that you can’t associate with someone who disagrees with you.
I loved this. The abolition ideology is absurd, in my opinion, but I very much cherish civil debate. On a personal note: Morrigan’s sobriety matters a huge amount here. I’m sober 12 years myself. Our national discourse feels very ‘alcoholic’ right now. Twelve-step recovery helps you grow up and become less narcissistic and self-involved. You begin to mature and sort your life out and help others and genuinely connect to reality. Victimhood is not supported in AA; taking responsibility very much is. Social justice warriors are all about victimhood and immaturity and shutting down dissenting opinions. The two cannot coexist very well. So, good for Morrigan on getting sober and seeing through the lies and woke bullshit!
Michael Mohr
https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
Thanks for this Michael. My canceller actually took my callout down and included me in her amends when she entered a recovery program. Every year I hear about more and more of the people who harassed me or others in our city entering Twelve-step programs or something similar.
Wow, maybe we need to start a 12-Step Cancellers Anonymous program.
You know: That's not a bad idea!
That’s awesome!!!
Wow really? That is great to hear and also very interesting on how the AA program is almost like a deprogramming of this victimhood and callout culture mindset.
I found that part of the interview interesting as well!
Definitely. Were I not sober and hadn't been doing AA for the past 12 years I'm certain I'd have a much different (perhaps more victimy) perspective on our modern times. The steps are all about accountability. Personal responsibility. And how could we in AA judge others outside AA? Shit, I know people in The Program who have killed people, ya know? People who have done the worst things you can imagine. And then (and this is crucial) they CHANGED and got sober. They made amends. Which brings up something else: What the F happened to redemption in this country? Now it's like if you said something untoward 15 years ago that's it; you're "out."
Michael Mohr
Sincere American Writing
https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
That is awesome. Yes. AA definitely teaches the opposite of contemporary SJW culture. (And thank God.) Sadly, despite AA's commitment to political neutrality and disinterest (also thank God), I've noticed more political rants (always from people on the Left) in meetings the past two years. Very annoying. One thing happened in 2020 a few months into the lockdowns on an AA zoom meeting which I found very instructive and interesting.
One of those obnoxious Zoom bombers got on and started yelling about N-word this and N-word that. The meeting sort of paused for a moment and they expelled the jackass. (Probably some obese 15-year-old in a basement somewhere in Wyoming.) Anyway, the person leading the group proceeded to carry on with the meeting...until a young female POC spoke up and said we all needed to have a discussion right then, in real time, about the language we'd just experienced.
So the meeting devolved into said discussion. It lasted about 20 minutes. Many black people spoke up and quite a few white people. It became clear very quickly that there was a generational and gender divide. The few young black women basically said something to the effect of, "This language is harmful and it was clearly aimed at black people. This is the legacy of racism and slavery," etc. Then several older black men in their fifties spoke up and basically said, "Why are we giving the Zoom bomber this much power? It's not about racism, it's about some idiot trying to get a quick rise out of us, which he has clearly now succeeded in doing. Let's just move on. This is AA." Several white people spoke up on both sides and then finally the debacle ended. I laughed, shook my head, and left the meeting.
After getting off I felt like, "I need a meeting now!" But I'm glad I witnessed it. It was very telling.
Michael Mohr
I write a lot about AA, sobriety, writing, culture, etc if anyone wants to subscribe to my Substack: https://michaelmohr.substack.com/
I was not addicted to alcohol, but I had severe adhd for most of my life - which can be an ingrained addiction to avoidance, in my experience, a learned behavior that starts VERY early in life, with similar roots to addiction. And apart from inherited predisposition, a lot of it comes from unmet attachment needs - which may be a result of parents, doctors, teachers and the greater environment not recognizing the needs of the child for many varied reasons that are unique to each person who develops this stress response.
I wonder how much of this cancel culture phenomenon comes from projecting this sort of unprocessed trauma response in mass via social media. kids who were a little different not getting their needs met as children enabling each other and kind of demanding that society cater to the sensitivity of those wounds, instead of finding a way to learn as adults how to recognize and meet those needs for themselves.
I bring up religion a lot on this board, and I think trauma responses to extremist faith and faithlessness itself also throw gasoline onto this phenomena. People have few tools for grounding and little sense of *healthy* secure belonging. Self regulation through prayer and clear defined core values that one shares with others are vital tools for emotional processing, resilience, and forgiveness.
We hate to admit we need recovery, but I agree with Clementine that modern life is a lot more traumatizing than we admit. The US has deplorable health conditions compared to other developed nations. A nation cannot have so much chronic illness AND be successfully meeting the needs of people, especially children. Growing up without your unmet needs even being acknowledged is traumatizing. It’s the trauma of neglect. If it’s not capitalism, it’s something. We only have to look at the health of other developed nations, and not compare to other times in history, to see that some how we are neglecting ourselves in our culture.
That being said, calling out culture doesn’t seem to be making anything better. I have a lot of friends in the interior of the country who are living better lives MINDING THEIR OWN BUSINESS.
I was diagnosed with ADHD later in life. May I ask if any treatments were helpful for you? I’ve tried med after med, then none, then back to ones I’ve tried before. I’m pretty lousy at being able to tell if anything helps or not.
(I ask this with the understanding that everyone is different & there’s no one way to treat ADHD, though overall stimulants are shown to be helpful for most, though not all people.)
It’s kind of like compulsive avoidance, and it’s a behavior like substance abuse, that gets worse with time, but which also does respond to willingness, interventions, knowledgeable support (which thank God there is now) and... grace .
I also think there is inherited predisposition and co morbid issues predispose one to developing distraction as a coping mechanism for overwhelm which can be provoked by sensory and auto immune and relational issues. I also think neuro-muscular issues like hypotonia can predispose us - like you said there are infinite reasons one starts Developing this automatic stress response- my experience though is that one can learn to observe the nervous system stress responses and build new responses. There is no switch though, it’s not switched off, and one doesn’t wake up and start making different decisions, it’s literally retraining the nervous system you have- which still might include all the co morbid issues that initially provoked the stress response, we can get better at attending those issues and not automatically and unconsciously avoiding.
I was diagnosed over a decade ago - and I wish adults could go to the interventions that children go to - I have done meds, physical therapy for hypotonia and motor planning, adhd coaching and finally somatic experiencing trauma therapy- all of that helped to build the mind body connection bc I think adhd starts as disassociation in infancy or in utero.
By far the most impactful of all those interventions was somatic experiencing trauma therapy.
*Dissociation* - I write with a ton of mistakes. Dyslexia, I can’t be bothered to correct it all for internet comment sections. That used to hold me back from writing bc I was so afraid of what others would think. Now🤷🏻♀️ yeah, my mistakes really bother some people. And that is there problem😉
Ha. I understand. It kills me when I write a thread on Twitter and realize there's a mistake in the middle. I can't ignore it, I have to go back and acknowledge it's there or some asshat will come along and point it out.
Wow, I haven't heard of most of that aside from meds, PT, and coaching. I have no history of trauma other than having an alcoholic father (the military got him to dry out, and he tried AA but didn't go through the whole thing so I suppose he's been a dry drunk for decades). He never hit me or my mother but he had a temper, we butted heads sometimes when I was older because I'm stubborn like him, much to my enabling mom's annoyance. He's a chronic hoarder, disabled... and now I'm realizing this sounds way more traumatic than I originally intended.
I got properly assessed by an ADHD specialist (psychologist), and did therapy throughout the pandemic with telehealth (assessment was in-person because of what it entails). I often feel like coaching would be helpful, but it's not covered by insurance & I don't know how people pay coaches thousands of dollars. I see an osteopath that specializes in psych stuff for my meds, but kind of came to the conclusion that it's pretty much going to be up to me to build the structure I need to do more with my abilities (I did well in school and I was just under what they'd call "gifted," meaning I always knew I wasn't achieving what I could if I had better executive functioning skills). Masked it in school with perfectionist traits, which promptly crumbled under me in college, though I got through and continued on to get a useless masters when I was feeling bad about myself (when I was floundering after college).
Okay, I'm rambling on now, which is my most hyper trait. I was all over the place, & hold no expectation it makes any sense to others. :)