Alright I’m sorry but Helen Lewis is just spectacularly charming. I could listen to her do commentary on a 100-meter foot race between blind 80-year-olds and enjoy it. That ability she has to just toss out perfectly formulated, terse, comedic phrases right off the top of her head is enviable—makes sense that she went to Oxford, as I could name a dozen Oxonians down through the generations who cultivated that skill there as well.
Anyway, if I bang on any longer like this it’ll start to sound a bit overeager and weird—that, or it already does, but oh well; I mean it, so I’m leaving it as written—so yeah, great episode guys. Genuinely made me cackle out loud while walking in the park by myself (where it’s about 6°F, so luckily I’m the only person around). You three have a lovely rapport, so I say more of these, please!
Absolutely agree! It was delightful, though I find Katie and Jesse pretty delightful on their own. It does seem that Katie’s basic decency - which she tries and fails (charmingly) to conceal as part of her shtick - is more obviously displayed when there’s a third foil. I look forward to the new year and, I hope, a total absence of any Keffals follow-up.
Your third sentence is both very perceptive and, I think, exactly correct—and well-put, too! Couldn’t agree more.
And I dunno, I kinda enjoyed the Keffals thing, if only because of how baroque and twisted it all was, and the way it showcased how insanely thorough Jesse is when he sinks his teeth into something. Having been a reporter and editor at a local paper, I can say that it seems to take a certain amount of insanity and/or obsessiveness to be a good journalist.
Thank you! You are absolutely correct about Jesse's thoroughness and I appreciate it very much. Both of them are quite impressive on that front - I love when I'm running skeptical arguments in my head or just flat-out confused and one of them asks a question and the other says, "Yes, we'll get to that." I am not, however, super on-line, so the episodes that focus on creepy and obscure Internet skirmishes leave me slightly nauseated. I do see how the Keffals stuff had links to broader concerns (which Jesse periodically took pains to point out) and I will try to treat it as necessary medicine.
Just wanna report that I listened to the whole eight-part series in two riding-my-bike-around-town sessions (episodes are a half-hour each, so not hard), and it is tremendous. It’s really, really well-done, and though it’s aimed at a mainstream audience (it’s a BBC production, and it shows in the high production values), it won’t bore weirdos who listen to Blocked & Reported by giving you a bunch of stuff you already know.
Yeah. When we had my DEI two month training, the two trainers were explicitly anti capitalist. Which was HILARIOUS because the black woman definitely had her own consulting firm. And the two trainers were getting paid a hell pf a lot more than those of us attending the training. Plus we still had to work.
Also. In regards to white women's tears leading to black men getting lynched. First. When was the last time this happened? Second. I remember reading about, what was it, kidney gate? The white woman who donated her kidney and her friends made fun of her and it became a whole mess. And there was an article in the student paper at the University of Chicago, and based on the guy's name, I would say he may have been black but more likely South Asian, and he was talking about the white woman getting upset about getting mocked was reminiscent of white women crying and black men getting lynched. And he meant it. But like. What white woman has gotten an Asian woman killed? And again. When was the last time a white woman has caused a black man to die in this wss?
ETA: I do not think there has ever been real change in people when they hsve been hostilely confronted. That is not how homophobia massively decreased. And if we look at substance use treatment. For years the method was - you are an alcoholic and your lool how you have ironed things. But it turned out not to be effective. I am betting the same is true of anti racism training.
Finally. Feigned innocence? Why the assumption that people already know and are pretending?
I strongly believe things change when you highlight what people have in common, rather than what divides them. I’d love to know what DEI trainers think of the SNL Tom Hanks Black Jeopardy sketch.
Especially when it would become clear that the ladies involved in Race2Dinner have more in common with the the white women they’re berating than the majority of the BIPOC people they’re advocating for.
That was so damn good. Or the song Everyone' s A Little Bit Racist from Avenue Q.
Also. I agreed with Helen about really talking about things especially in a multicultural setting. In our training, thag was the part I found really helpful. However. We were then split into affinity groups - 1 for white and white passing and 1 for POC. And we were told this was anti tscist. But I.am not sure how.
I am glad the Race2Dinner women are not making money off it but I am not sure how it helps anyone. And Rao seemed really really angry. And pretty sure the angry thing applies to black people not POC in general.
The best thing the “white accountability” group did at my job was have an all company pizza party because literally everyone loves pizza. It was the most diverse event we’ve ever had lol.
I watch that sketch often (don't judge, weed is legal here). I really think it was the last desperate mainstream attempt at uniting America. After that we realized, yeah nothing's going to work until we get a civil war or this hysteria blows itself out.
It speaks to the great unspoken issue in America: class. If the lower middle class/working class of the US ever realized how they were being manipulated to hate each other through identity politics, then some real progress could be made.
'In regards to white women's tears leading to black men getting lynched. First. When was the last time this happened?'
This is absolutely not the point. The chances that a white woman's tears during DEI training will result in a black man being lynched are pretty much the same as that they'll result in his abduction by aliens. However, while we'd quickly tune out a work training that told people to change their behavior based on the perceived threat of alien abduction, women just need to suck up being mocked to avoid something else that is about as common.
The thing is. No one is saying that white women crying will lead to a black man getting lynched. The logic is that it REMINDS black people of how white women crying led to black men getting lynched and therefore it causes trauma and/ or black people feel like they have to comfort the white woman.. It is strange
John Mcwhorter, Coleman Hughes, Claire Lehmann, Jon Kay(and the staff at Quillette generally) would be other examples of 'IDW-adjacent' figures who didn't go off the deep-end.
Are we really calling Ibram Kendi "thoughtful"? Helen Lewis commented just seconds earlier that he thought White people were alien because of their blue eyes. What if this were Marjorie Taylor Greene commenting on the weird, alien quality of brown eyes?
I listened to the Helen Lewis "White Woman Tears" New Gurus episode after I finished this latest B&R and I will say that Ibram, regardless of what you think of his ideas, has a certain... calmness and introspectiveness that I could see would be appealing as an interviewer, especially if you encounter his style/demeanor after talking to some of these other people, who are quite... aggressive (it's not racist to say that is it?). He actually answered her question about the contradiction of his writing/work with capitalism and profit very thoughtfully, as opposed to the Race2Dinner people who said it was racist to even ask them about the money. I think Helen summed it up nicely when she said he came from a more calm college background and not Twitter Outrage Land.
True. But I think if we want to call someone "thoughtful and wrong", they should at least show some epistemic humility and learn from past mistakes.
All I really see from Kendi's work is race essentialism (ala White people share some essential essence). I think he exports American race dynamics onto the rest of the world where it doesn't fit. And I think Helen Lewis is right when she says that his "abolish capitalism" solution is a kind of nonsense, Holy Grail goal.
So yeah, Jesus is a good counterexample but I'd hardly put Kendi in that group. I think he's just an ideologue selling a popular message without much self reflection
I was a little surprised when I read "How to be an Antiracist" at how much of his stuff is just rewarmed Black Power stuff from circa 1970. He had been hailed as an original voice, but so much was, well, not.
The low point that I have personally seen from Kendi was the proposal for a federal Department of Antiracism. It was awful and frightening.
To give him some credit, he thought that quite a while ago, in college I think, and he explicitly disavows that in his book. The "white devils" ideas that came out of the 60s radicals (esp. Nation of Islam) snared a lot of people. Not saying it's not racist though!
I'd say Kendi (now) comes across as decently thoughtful *compared to a bunch of the biggest Twitter voices*, but not compared to really careful intellectuals. I do think he's terribly, dangerously wrong though in his analysis of society and his prescriptions.
I mean, I certainly hope he's disavowed those comments. I'll take your word for it.
His comments about Amy Coney Barrett and "colonizers" adopting Black children suggests to me that this prejudice is not in his past.
His defenders claim he was just giving a historical example to counter ACB supporters. But I don't think he would use an example like that unless he thought it was directly relevant to today.
When you put that together with his policy positions, I don't know how you can call him anything other than one of the world's most famous and popular racists. Maybe he's more measured than the "white people don't eat bread" lady, but that's a low bar.
He must be magnificently charming in person or something, because I can’t understand how he keeps succeeding.
This guy wanted an unaccountable department of antiracism that had the power to veto any law anywhere in the country. They could review your town’s plan for sewer maintenance and declare it racist and therefore void.
He comes across as dumber than your average r/news commenter.
It is really hard to think of how a male Race to Dinner would go. On one hand, I imagine everyone with as much interest as the 5th safety meeting on scissor usage. On the other, I see a room full of trolls that will say things to get a rise out of the presenters.
Plus, white men don't need to pay thousands to be told how racist and misogynistic they inherently are. We have Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, Podcasts, Documentaries, News, Institutional Lectures, DEI trainings, and a section at trendy book stores.
I have a white male colleague who would probably love to attend one of these things.
He's one of these "I'm the best ally, I'm getting offended on behalf of everyone else" self-flagellating guys.
I'm veeeery tempted to tell him that the things he believes women to be offended by are absolutely fine for most women but that *ahem* certain progressive things that he is very much on board with are very offensive to women.
I have (had?) a male feminist friend & I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about. His feminism was based solely on abortion & contraception. Important! But he thinks I’m a hateful b-slur (I’m guessing) because I don’t think men belong in women’s prisons, etc. Nothing more annoying than a guy Mansplaining why TWAW (my follow-up of “but in what ways are they more like biological women than biological men?” has gone unanswered). 🙄
We should have a regular round up of non-American/British internet bullshit. I bet there’s a ton of nonsense coming out of Australia/NZ/Europe that we don’t know about
"Your question was gaslighting, Helen. Because cluelessness, feigned ignorance..." So, being clueless is, per se, "feigned ignorance"? Mind reading, much?! Ugh, so gross.
I am deeply embarrassed by how excited, then disappointed I was by the revelation that Jesse went to the same high school as Chase Strangio... but tragically, not at the same time.
Also, how is Chase over forty? This seems simply impossible.
Chase is 40. He was in my class, and Jesse was two years behind us (yes, I checked my yearbook to confirm), so they were there together for two years. But there were over 2,000 kids at the school, so we all "went to high school" with lots of people we didn't actually know.
True, though it was also academically streamed, or at least it was in my day (NNHS '87). I don't recall the students in the curriculum I / I-A classes (college prep & honors) having any social interaction with those in curriculum II (tech/vocational & non-college) - it felt like two schools sharing the same building. The whole thing seems pretty classist in retrospect.
Pet peeve: on the left we always want to blame everything (White Women discourse, etc) on agitators from outside the movement: men’s rights activists, Nazis, Reply Guys, etc. This makes us feel good because we have a nice out group to pin everything on as Helen does in this episode (it’s not POC that are attacking white women, it was actually white men the whole time! Saira Rao is just a figurehead!) And yet: every leftist space (dating back to the 1970s at least) ends up devolving into the same disfunction of purity spirals, cancellations etc. Maybe it’s worth acknowledging that sometimes The Call Is Coming From Inside the House?
Alright I’m sorry but Helen Lewis is just spectacularly charming. I could listen to her do commentary on a 100-meter foot race between blind 80-year-olds and enjoy it. That ability she has to just toss out perfectly formulated, terse, comedic phrases right off the top of her head is enviable—makes sense that she went to Oxford, as I could name a dozen Oxonians down through the generations who cultivated that skill there as well.
Anyway, if I bang on any longer like this it’ll start to sound a bit overeager and weird—that, or it already does, but oh well; I mean it, so I’m leaving it as written—so yeah, great episode guys. Genuinely made me cackle out loud while walking in the park by myself (where it’s about 6°F, so luckily I’m the only person around). You three have a lovely rapport, so I say more of these, please!
Absolutely agree! It was delightful, though I find Katie and Jesse pretty delightful on their own. It does seem that Katie’s basic decency - which she tries and fails (charmingly) to conceal as part of her shtick - is more obviously displayed when there’s a third foil. I look forward to the new year and, I hope, a total absence of any Keffals follow-up.
Your third sentence is both very perceptive and, I think, exactly correct—and well-put, too! Couldn’t agree more.
And I dunno, I kinda enjoyed the Keffals thing, if only because of how baroque and twisted it all was, and the way it showcased how insanely thorough Jesse is when he sinks his teeth into something. Having been a reporter and editor at a local paper, I can say that it seems to take a certain amount of insanity and/or obsessiveness to be a good journalist.
Thank you! You are absolutely correct about Jesse's thoroughness and I appreciate it very much. Both of them are quite impressive on that front - I love when I'm running skeptical arguments in my head or just flat-out confused and one of them asks a question and the other says, "Yes, we'll get to that." I am not, however, super on-line, so the episodes that focus on creepy and obscure Internet skirmishes leave me slightly nauseated. I do see how the Keffals stuff had links to broader concerns (which Jesse periodically took pains to point out) and I will try to treat it as necessary medicine.
I've heard the name before but don't really recognize her. She was an absolute delight; I'll definitely be listening to her podcast asap.
Just wanna report that I listened to the whole eight-part series in two riding-my-bike-around-town sessions (episodes are a half-hour each, so not hard), and it is tremendous. It’s really, really well-done, and though it’s aimed at a mainstream audience (it’s a BBC production, and it shows in the high production values), it won’t bore weirdos who listen to Blocked & Reported by giving you a bunch of stuff you already know.
Yeah. When we had my DEI two month training, the two trainers were explicitly anti capitalist. Which was HILARIOUS because the black woman definitely had her own consulting firm. And the two trainers were getting paid a hell pf a lot more than those of us attending the training. Plus we still had to work.
Also. In regards to white women's tears leading to black men getting lynched. First. When was the last time this happened? Second. I remember reading about, what was it, kidney gate? The white woman who donated her kidney and her friends made fun of her and it became a whole mess. And there was an article in the student paper at the University of Chicago, and based on the guy's name, I would say he may have been black but more likely South Asian, and he was talking about the white woman getting upset about getting mocked was reminiscent of white women crying and black men getting lynched. And he meant it. But like. What white woman has gotten an Asian woman killed? And again. When was the last time a white woman has caused a black man to die in this wss?
ETA: I do not think there has ever been real change in people when they hsve been hostilely confronted. That is not how homophobia massively decreased. And if we look at substance use treatment. For years the method was - you are an alcoholic and your lool how you have ironed things. But it turned out not to be effective. I am betting the same is true of anti racism training.
Finally. Feigned innocence? Why the assumption that people already know and are pretending?
I strongly believe things change when you highlight what people have in common, rather than what divides them. I’d love to know what DEI trainers think of the SNL Tom Hanks Black Jeopardy sketch.
But highlighting what people have in common would put those trainers out of business.
Especially when it would become clear that the ladies involved in Race2Dinner have more in common with the the white women they’re berating than the majority of the BIPOC people they’re advocating for.
That was so damn good. Or the song Everyone' s A Little Bit Racist from Avenue Q.
Also. I agreed with Helen about really talking about things especially in a multicultural setting. In our training, thag was the part I found really helpful. However. We were then split into affinity groups - 1 for white and white passing and 1 for POC. And we were told this was anti tscist. But I.am not sure how.
I am glad the Race2Dinner women are not making money off it but I am not sure how it helps anyone. And Rao seemed really really angry. And pretty sure the angry thing applies to black people not POC in general.
The best thing the “white accountability” group did at my job was have an all company pizza party because literally everyone loves pizza. It was the most diverse event we’ve ever had lol.
I watch that sketch often (don't judge, weed is legal here). I really think it was the last desperate mainstream attempt at uniting America. After that we realized, yeah nothing's going to work until we get a civil war or this hysteria blows itself out.
It speaks to the great unspoken issue in America: class. If the lower middle class/working class of the US ever realized how they were being manipulated to hate each other through identity politics, then some real progress could be made.
I think a lot of people do recognize it. They know that no political leaders really give a shit about the working class, so they don't bother voting.
Watching that sketch now. I forgot about this one!
'In regards to white women's tears leading to black men getting lynched. First. When was the last time this happened?'
This is absolutely not the point. The chances that a white woman's tears during DEI training will result in a black man being lynched are pretty much the same as that they'll result in his abduction by aliens. However, while we'd quickly tune out a work training that told people to change their behavior based on the perceived threat of alien abduction, women just need to suck up being mocked to avoid something else that is about as common.
The thing is. No one is saying that white women crying will lead to a black man getting lynched. The logic is that it REMINDS black people of how white women crying led to black men getting lynched and therefore it causes trauma and/ or black people feel like they have to comfort the white woman.. It is strange
John Mcwhorter, Coleman Hughes, Claire Lehmann, Jon Kay(and the staff at Quillette generally) would be other examples of 'IDW-adjacent' figures who didn't go off the deep-end.
And Jonathan Haidt is probably still the most reasonable man in the world.
Under Article 13 of the Irish constitution I’m legally obliged to note Helen Joyce is Irish, sorry
What a terrible accusation to make.
But if she's a Joyce, she's one of those Hiberno-Norman latecomers who's roots in Ireland only go back to the 12th Century.
Are we really calling Ibram Kendi "thoughtful"? Helen Lewis commented just seconds earlier that he thought White people were alien because of their blue eyes. What if this were Marjorie Taylor Greene commenting on the weird, alien quality of brown eyes?
I listened to the Helen Lewis "White Woman Tears" New Gurus episode after I finished this latest B&R and I will say that Ibram, regardless of what you think of his ideas, has a certain... calmness and introspectiveness that I could see would be appealing as an interviewer, especially if you encounter his style/demeanor after talking to some of these other people, who are quite... aggressive (it's not racist to say that is it?). He actually answered her question about the contradiction of his writing/work with capitalism and profit very thoughtfully, as opposed to the Race2Dinner people who said it was racist to even ask them about the money. I think Helen summed it up nicely when she said he came from a more calm college background and not Twitter Outrage Land.
I think one can be thoughtful and wrong. Like Karl Marx or Jesus Christ. Kendo's just another one.
True. But I think if we want to call someone "thoughtful and wrong", they should at least show some epistemic humility and learn from past mistakes.
All I really see from Kendi's work is race essentialism (ala White people share some essential essence). I think he exports American race dynamics onto the rest of the world where it doesn't fit. And I think Helen Lewis is right when she says that his "abolish capitalism" solution is a kind of nonsense, Holy Grail goal.
So yeah, Jesus is a good counterexample but I'd hardly put Kendi in that group. I think he's just an ideologue selling a popular message without much self reflection
I was a little surprised when I read "How to be an Antiracist" at how much of his stuff is just rewarmed Black Power stuff from circa 1970. He had been hailed as an original voice, but so much was, well, not.
The low point that I have personally seen from Kendi was the proposal for a federal Department of Antiracism. It was awful and frightening.
Yeah, his ideas are authoritarian, if not downright totalitarian.
That's much more thoughtful and kind than what I had been going to post, but canceled. Nice.
To give him some credit, he thought that quite a while ago, in college I think, and he explicitly disavows that in his book. The "white devils" ideas that came out of the 60s radicals (esp. Nation of Islam) snared a lot of people. Not saying it's not racist though!
I'd say Kendi (now) comes across as decently thoughtful *compared to a bunch of the biggest Twitter voices*, but not compared to really careful intellectuals. I do think he's terribly, dangerously wrong though in his analysis of society and his prescriptions.
I mean, I certainly hope he's disavowed those comments. I'll take your word for it.
His comments about Amy Coney Barrett and "colonizers" adopting Black children suggests to me that this prejudice is not in his past.
His defenders claim he was just giving a historical example to counter ACB supporters. But I don't think he would use an example like that unless he thought it was directly relevant to today.
When you put that together with his policy positions, I don't know how you can call him anything other than one of the world's most famous and popular racists. Maybe he's more measured than the "white people don't eat bread" lady, but that's a low bar.
I'm certainly not eager to defend Kendi in general. I didn't see the ACB comment.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/amy-coney-barrett-supreme-court-children-ibram-x-kendi-b676190.html
Thanks for the link, Blondie! Pretty darn awful.
He must be magnificently charming in person or something, because I can’t understand how he keeps succeeding.
This guy wanted an unaccountable department of antiracism that had the power to veto any law anywhere in the country. They could review your town’s plan for sewer maintenance and declare it racist and therefore void.
He comes across as dumber than your average r/news commenter.
I suspect you can't understand why he's succeeding because you think it has something to do with him.
Our information space is full of people who are propped up by someone else's money and power, not because they're winning at life.
It is really hard to think of how a male Race to Dinner would go. On one hand, I imagine everyone with as much interest as the 5th safety meeting on scissor usage. On the other, I see a room full of trolls that will say things to get a rise out of the presenters.
Plus, white men don't need to pay thousands to be told how racist and misogynistic they inherently are. We have Twitter, Reddit, YouTube, Podcasts, Documentaries, News, Institutional Lectures, DEI trainings, and a section at trendy book stores.
I have a white male colleague who would probably love to attend one of these things.
He's one of these "I'm the best ally, I'm getting offended on behalf of everyone else" self-flagellating guys.
I'm veeeery tempted to tell him that the things he believes women to be offended by are absolutely fine for most women but that *ahem* certain progressive things that he is very much on board with are very offensive to women.
I have (had?) a male feminist friend & I know EXACTLY what you’re talking about. His feminism was based solely on abortion & contraception. Important! But he thinks I’m a hateful b-slur (I’m guessing) because I don’t think men belong in women’s prisons, etc. Nothing more annoying than a guy Mansplaining why TWAW (my follow-up of “but in what ways are they more like biological women than biological men?” has gone unanswered). 🙄
Oh we like self-flagellation and we like protecting women. We just don't like dinner parties.
I love listening to Helen Keller. Great episode
Helen Keller was a famous deaf-blind advocate and socialist. The guest for this episode was Helen Clark.
You’re thinking of Helen of Troy
Classic TERF for sure, that one
How do those Helens rank on the Spiciness Scale? I need to know!
I think Joyce ranks just behind Damnation.
I see what you did there
But what about Helen Wheels?
Hers went to Helen A Hamb-Ascot.
Ah, that’s niche!
This is the best Christmas gift. Helen is incredibly clever and hilarious. 10/10
Hilarious! I really enjoyed playing along at home. Thankfully I scored lower than K&J.
Helen is an excellent foil for our dynamic duo.
I would be up for a quarterly Katie, Jesse and Helen shoot the shit on internet bollocks episode.
Should there be a new “BARPod International” series?
We should have a regular round up of non-American/British internet bullshit. I bet there’s a ton of nonsense coming out of Australia/NZ/Europe that we don’t know about
Embarrassingly, I yelled out “MICHAEL HOBBES!!!!” at the appropriate moment during this episode
Then I went to Christmas Eve dinner and listened to my otherwise respectable cousin tell me that her favorite podcast is Maintenance Phase.
Someone I love and adore also loves Maintenance Phase. We should have a support group
What a fun episode! Helen needs to be a recurring guest on the show. This show restores my sanity.
"Your question was gaslighting, Helen. Because cluelessness, feigned ignorance..." So, being clueless is, per se, "feigned ignorance"? Mind reading, much?! Ugh, so gross.
I am deeply embarrassed by how excited, then disappointed I was by the revelation that Jesse went to the same high school as Chase Strangio... but tragically, not at the same time.
Also, how is Chase over forty? This seems simply impossible.
Chase is 40. He was in my class, and Jesse was two years behind us (yes, I checked my yearbook to confirm), so they were there together for two years. But there were over 2,000 kids at the school, so we all "went to high school" with lots of people we didn't actually know.
True, though it was also academically streamed, or at least it was in my day (NNHS '87). I don't recall the students in the curriculum I / I-A classes (college prep & honors) having any social interaction with those in curriculum II (tech/vocational & non-college) - it felt like two schools sharing the same building. The whole thing seems pretty classist in retrospect.
I knew James Lindsey hadn’t used Russia’s greatest Love Machine as a display name because its actually funny and not nearly culture war-y enough.
Pet peeve: on the left we always want to blame everything (White Women discourse, etc) on agitators from outside the movement: men’s rights activists, Nazis, Reply Guys, etc. This makes us feel good because we have a nice out group to pin everything on as Helen does in this episode (it’s not POC that are attacking white women, it was actually white men the whole time! Saira Rao is just a figurehead!) And yet: every leftist space (dating back to the 1970s at least) ends up devolving into the same disfunction of purity spirals, cancellations etc. Maybe it’s worth acknowledging that sometimes The Call Is Coming From Inside the House?
Petition for Jesse to change his legal name to Stephanie Muhammed Elon Jr