I live in central Europe in a country very comfortable with nudity, and I've been to several saunas where I am nude in a mixed-sex setting. Yet even these facilities have separate changing facilities for men and women. Why? Because they are ISOLATED. Often it will only be me and one other person in the changing area. I would feel extremely uncomfortable if that person were a man, for hopefully obvious reasons.
Women don't want sex-segregated spaces because we are prudes, we want them because opportunistic male predators will exploit any chance they can in places were we are naked, alone and vulnerable. It never fails to astonish me that despite the overwhelming statistics showing women are frequently the victims of male sexual and physical violence, we still get people stroking their chins and opining as to whether we want our own changing rooms because we're bigots, prudes or just plain paranoid.
I've been to one very trendy one where the male and female changing rooms were connected so essentially mixed sex. I wasn't a fan really. Most of the patrons were couples, which may have explained the decision, as well as the fact it had a very hipster vibe.
Most saunas here however have male and female changing rooms, as do all the swimming pools and leisure facilities in general. There is a healthy and relaxed attitude to nudity, which I enjoy, and also a healthy understanding of the need for boundaries in changing areas where people are isolated, which I also greatly appreciate. Context is everything. Being naked in a room alone with a stranger is very different to being naked in a public area with lots of other naked people.
A thought but here in Europe, even though there are unisex spaces etc there is also for example many times own times in saunas etc for women. Because nowadays especially many do not want to share space with men due to feeling at risk. There has always been own spaces for women here to-due to sex-specific reason, and considering womenтАЩs spaces, an umbrella term, it cannot be looked upon counting out prisons, shelters, hospitals, sex specific services or safety issues due to sex-it would be as looking on the issue of dogcares trough the pens of farms-because there are farms with dogs also.
All depends on the country, and with nowadays what I mean is the higher prevalence of for example a more pornified culture (non related to the тАЬprudenessтАЭ culture), and the technological advances that make recording and photographing a serious issue for women and girls (there would not be as many тАЬhow to secure your hotel room from hidden camerasтАЭ and alike things going round otherwise).
If we take for example Finland/Swedens saunaculture, more maybe specifically Finland, as there it has been tradition to go together and nude no matter the sexes-there STILL has always been separate saunas for men and women too but Finlandnis often seen as a more nuditynatural-place in the sacredness of the sauna so to speak-and as for now/then aspect, unified nudity is less common even in Finland, towels are more normalised to use in public saunas too.
And sending kids by themselves to public blended saunas is not as common as before either, due to safety reasons and other.
What shows in the news is a quite idealized version of the old times, and of course there are still a few saunas that keep to the old norm.
Nudity is more performative and linked to sexuality also in Europe nowadays, of course there are beaches and places where unisex nudity is more common and neutral but we also have to consider that there are quite many who do not go there because of shared nudity, and hence not тАЬseenтАЭ.
I still feel we cannot compare apples to oranges, or chop of a minimal bit of the fruit and look at the wholeness through only that.
Most womenтАЩs problem with nudity hasnтАЩt with nudity to do, but the overly sexualization of their nudity-which it is more uncommon to be able to avoid. And the overall shift in the culture - there is less neutral nudity overall culturally - also affects the neutral nudity spaces as a side-effect.
The feeling of freedom in an all-women space is in big contrast to the shared ones.
How women move, subtle body language cues, a kind of watchfulness.
In an all women space it often takes a while for relaxation to set in many times, but when it does it is totally different from when men are there. Even the convos that sometimes stir up are so different, more vulnerable and also with more space for topics that regard things only women go through.
There is a wonderful freedom in being able to be nude and natural, but if anyone breaks that code and infringes on the neutrality it affects it really badly. And even the possibility of someone breaking the code does affect.
One type of тАЬacclimatizingтАЭ is hence to join in a certain performativity - a kind of self-monitoring (thinking of how one looks in all situations, level of grooming like f.ex body hair to not be shamed, etc which, according to research women do a LOT even with clothes on), to not be тАЬcaughtтАЭ in an тАЬunpresentingтАЭ or тАЬunflatteringтАЭ state.
This MIGHT be more for younger/adults, but having that watchfulness and realisation that no matter how neutral you yourself present or consider yourself, someone can (and mostly men) DO sexualize you even in a neutral space because the grande attitude of тАЬthatтАЩs just how it isтАЭ.
IтАЩd consider it quite beautiful but naive to not take that into consideration in the world as it is.
Just as with pronouns, we cannot decide how others perceive us, but the oversexualisation of womenтАЩs bodies is not a neutral thing.
But I do love to see all the older women with no more FтАЩs to give dangle around, take up space, and so many many times support all younger women to with their energy and presence. And those women are the ones that usually dare to call out bad stuff in a whole other way if it happens, maybe because theyтАЩve been there while that was the norm, or maybe because theyтАЩve just been there.
IтАЩm almost a never nude myself (Arrested Development reference), but is there any change in the culture where nudity used to be considered okay because of the immigration of Muslims? I read how many Muslim women in some part of the UK were upset that TIMs were going to women-only swimming ponds that they avoid them now.
I donтАЩt think itтАЩs fair to expect women of faith to have to accept the inclusion of males in female spaces (IтАЩm not saying YOU do, just in general).
There is of course discussion of the exclusion of women of a faith that restricts their sharing space with males. How it goes forth varies locally dependent on countries, urban/rural, laws and regulations, different counties local attitudes- from what IтАЩve understood there had been some places making own shifts for only women-how that then has gone I sadly donтАЩt know. If, and thatтАЩs if I remember correctly-there was a case in Sweden where muslim women fought to get an hour for swimming (and the rest of the facilities use, often sauna goes hand in hand). IтАЩd have to check it up though, I do not trust Swedens line in these things as they are going quite тАЬprogressiveтАЭ.
Europe is quite vast and varying in cultures, and in some places I do not think any of the changes will go trough easily.
There IS muddling of the lines of course because higher levels of pressure/lobbying/activism/harassment online are big and ongoing -and in many places a generational conflict as the younger protest - in many issues quite rightly - the тАЬold waysтАЭ.
Also the uncertainty of laws and regulations for these selfIDтАЩs / womens spaces from the EU is what IтАЩve understood ongoing- and I do think for example GermanyтАЩs line will affect all in these discussions. Sadly.
Not all, but many immigrant women also do not maybe take on the fight- there are various reasons for that. And they are not a monolith.
But many leave their hobbies like swimming because of this, in some countries they have saunas to go to at home.
I do hope, whatever opinion I myself might be of regulating womenтАЩs choices through religions, that weтАЩd respect also muslim womenтАЩs rights to have hobbies and physical movement as it even can hinder them from going to certain health related (doctor/physio prescribed) physical activities- because in many places there are laws about equal possibilities to participation in various stuff, and of course laws about rights to religion etc.
I do not know all that many practicing muslim women, but most I know they do worry, or at least think about these things if they know about all the sneaked in SelfID-stuff and trans at all.
Some donтАЩt, but many of them are not actively using such anyway- which IS an issue there has been discussion about in many countries: how to include immigrant women more effectively into society, make it easier for them to work/study/have social lives, get to find their place in their country and culture. So it is part of an issue that goes against the aim of wellbeing and participation in society for ALL citizens.
I understand that each country has their own laws, etc., and that no group is a monolith -- but I appreciate hearing your perspective! Thank you for adding to the discussion.
"seeing your writing around here makes it a bit easier to step up and comment for me too!" And so it was for me when I saw other women daring to speak up, too.
I don't think this is necessarily true; where I live all the mixed sex saunas require nudity, making it a cultural norm in the context of a spa/sauna. It isn't allowed to enter a sauna in a bathing suit, you must be naked and seated on your towel, so this person likely just enjoys saunas as well as the freedom that does come with being naked in a place where nudity is not really considered sexual in such a context. That said, nearly all these spas tend to have separate changing areas for men and women, which shows that despite mixed sex nudity being normal the need for sex segregation is still acknowledged where people are likely to be isolated and vulnerable.
I live in central Europe in a country very comfortable with nudity, and I've been to several saunas where I am nude in a mixed-sex setting. Yet even these facilities have separate changing facilities for men and women. Why? Because they are ISOLATED. Often it will only be me and one other person in the changing area. I would feel extremely uncomfortable if that person were a man, for hopefully obvious reasons.
Women don't want sex-segregated spaces because we are prudes, we want them because opportunistic male predators will exploit any chance they can in places were we are naked, alone and vulnerable. It never fails to astonish me that despite the overwhelming statistics showing women are frequently the victims of male sexual and physical violence, we still get people stroking their chins and opining as to whether we want our own changing rooms because we're bigots, prudes or just plain paranoid.
I've been to one very trendy one where the male and female changing rooms were connected so essentially mixed sex. I wasn't a fan really. Most of the patrons were couples, which may have explained the decision, as well as the fact it had a very hipster vibe.
Most saunas here however have male and female changing rooms, as do all the swimming pools and leisure facilities in general. There is a healthy and relaxed attitude to nudity, which I enjoy, and also a healthy understanding of the need for boundaries in changing areas where people are isolated, which I also greatly appreciate. Context is everything. Being naked in a room alone with a stranger is very different to being naked in a public area with lots of other naked people.
Ahh, so you are someone who is deliberately seeking out nudist venues, youтАЩre not stumbling across them.
ItтАЩs not the case that they are тАШcommonтАЩ; they can be found if you are interested. Most people are not.
People who do not like being naked in public donтАЩt go spas where people get naked in public.
I donтАЩt. As a result, I donтАЩt labour under the delusion that Europeans are all totally relaxed by mixed sex public nudity.
A thought but here in Europe, even though there are unisex spaces etc there is also for example many times own times in saunas etc for women. Because nowadays especially many do not want to share space with men due to feeling at risk. There has always been own spaces for women here to-due to sex-specific reason, and considering womenтАЩs spaces, an umbrella term, it cannot be looked upon counting out prisons, shelters, hospitals, sex specific services or safety issues due to sex-it would be as looking on the issue of dogcares trough the pens of farms-because there are farms with dogs also.
Which part of Europe are you referring to?
Because itтАЩs definition not the case in the U.K. and Ireland.
Yeah? Which bit of continental Europe? Be specific, go on.
Because mixed sex nudity definitely was not common in any of the bits of Europe IтАЩve visited.
Half of the continent is still religiously conservative.
ThatтАЩs really a very small part of тАШcontinental EuropeтАЩ.
All depends on the country, and with nowadays what I mean is the higher prevalence of for example a more pornified culture (non related to the тАЬprudenessтАЭ culture), and the technological advances that make recording and photographing a serious issue for women and girls (there would not be as many тАЬhow to secure your hotel room from hidden camerasтАЭ and alike things going round otherwise).
If we take for example Finland/Swedens saunaculture, more maybe specifically Finland, as there it has been tradition to go together and nude no matter the sexes-there STILL has always been separate saunas for men and women too but Finlandnis often seen as a more nuditynatural-place in the sacredness of the sauna so to speak-and as for now/then aspect, unified nudity is less common even in Finland, towels are more normalised to use in public saunas too.
And sending kids by themselves to public blended saunas is not as common as before either, due to safety reasons and other.
What shows in the news is a quite idealized version of the old times, and of course there are still a few saunas that keep to the old norm.
Nudity is more performative and linked to sexuality also in Europe nowadays, of course there are beaches and places where unisex nudity is more common and neutral but we also have to consider that there are quite many who do not go there because of shared nudity, and hence not тАЬseenтАЭ.
I still feel we cannot compare apples to oranges, or chop of a minimal bit of the fruit and look at the wholeness through only that.
Most womenтАЩs problem with nudity hasnтАЩt with nudity to do, but the overly sexualization of their nudity-which it is more uncommon to be able to avoid. And the overall shift in the culture - there is less neutral nudity overall culturally - also affects the neutral nudity spaces as a side-effect.
The feeling of freedom in an all-women space is in big contrast to the shared ones.
How women move, subtle body language cues, a kind of watchfulness.
In an all women space it often takes a while for relaxation to set in many times, but when it does it is totally different from when men are there. Even the convos that sometimes stir up are so different, more vulnerable and also with more space for topics that regard things only women go through.
There is a wonderful freedom in being able to be nude and natural, but if anyone breaks that code and infringes on the neutrality it affects it really badly. And even the possibility of someone breaking the code does affect.
One type of тАЬacclimatizingтАЭ is hence to join in a certain performativity - a kind of self-monitoring (thinking of how one looks in all situations, level of grooming like f.ex body hair to not be shamed, etc which, according to research women do a LOT even with clothes on), to not be тАЬcaughtтАЭ in an тАЬunpresentingтАЭ or тАЬunflatteringтАЭ state.
This MIGHT be more for younger/adults, but having that watchfulness and realisation that no matter how neutral you yourself present or consider yourself, someone can (and mostly men) DO sexualize you even in a neutral space because the grande attitude of тАЬthatтАЩs just how it isтАЭ.
IтАЩd consider it quite beautiful but naive to not take that into consideration in the world as it is.
Just as with pronouns, we cannot decide how others perceive us, but the oversexualisation of womenтАЩs bodies is not a neutral thing.
But I do love to see all the older women with no more FтАЩs to give dangle around, take up space, and so many many times support all younger women to with their energy and presence. And those women are the ones that usually dare to call out bad stuff in a whole other way if it happens, maybe because theyтАЩve been there while that was the norm, or maybe because theyтАЩve just been there.
IтАЩm almost a never nude myself (Arrested Development reference), but is there any change in the culture where nudity used to be considered okay because of the immigration of Muslims? I read how many Muslim women in some part of the UK were upset that TIMs were going to women-only swimming ponds that they avoid them now.
I donтАЩt think itтАЩs fair to expect women of faith to have to accept the inclusion of males in female spaces (IтАЩm not saying YOU do, just in general).
Oh, those jeans shorts haha!
There is of course discussion of the exclusion of women of a faith that restricts their sharing space with males. How it goes forth varies locally dependent on countries, urban/rural, laws and regulations, different counties local attitudes- from what IтАЩve understood there had been some places making own shifts for only women-how that then has gone I sadly donтАЩt know. If, and thatтАЩs if I remember correctly-there was a case in Sweden where muslim women fought to get an hour for swimming (and the rest of the facilities use, often sauna goes hand in hand). IтАЩd have to check it up though, I do not trust Swedens line in these things as they are going quite тАЬprogressiveтАЭ.
Europe is quite vast and varying in cultures, and in some places I do not think any of the changes will go trough easily.
There IS muddling of the lines of course because higher levels of pressure/lobbying/activism/harassment online are big and ongoing -and in many places a generational conflict as the younger protest - in many issues quite rightly - the тАЬold waysтАЭ.
Also the uncertainty of laws and regulations for these selfIDтАЩs / womens spaces from the EU is what IтАЩve understood ongoing- and I do think for example GermanyтАЩs line will affect all in these discussions. Sadly.
Not all, but many immigrant women also do not maybe take on the fight- there are various reasons for that. And they are not a monolith.
But many leave their hobbies like swimming because of this, in some countries they have saunas to go to at home.
I do hope, whatever opinion I myself might be of regulating womenтАЩs choices through religions, that weтАЩd respect also muslim womenтАЩs rights to have hobbies and physical movement as it even can hinder them from going to certain health related (doctor/physio prescribed) physical activities- because in many places there are laws about equal possibilities to participation in various stuff, and of course laws about rights to religion etc.
I do not know all that many practicing muslim women, but most I know they do worry, or at least think about these things if they know about all the sneaked in SelfID-stuff and trans at all.
Some donтАЩt, but many of them are not actively using such anyway- which IS an issue there has been discussion about in many countries: how to include immigrant women more effectively into society, make it easier for them to work/study/have social lives, get to find their place in their country and culture. So it is part of an issue that goes against the aim of wellbeing and participation in society for ALL citizens.
I understand that each country has their own laws, etc., and that no group is a monolith -- but I appreciate hearing your perspective! Thank you for adding to the discussion.
I caught that, yes, your thinking of respecting womenтАЩs religious beliefs sobering and empathetic!
We might both be trying to expand in our comments quite often, as you wrote, for just in general.
Especially when mentioning religions and women it so easily gets flooded with a lot of different things than the issue actually being discussed.
I like following your comments and thoughts, seeing your writing around here makes it a bit easier to step up and comment for me too!
Thank you, elinda.
"seeing your writing around here makes it a bit easier to step up and comment for me too!" And so it was for me when I saw other women daring to speak up, too.
I love hearing your perspective! Thank you for commenting.
YouтАЩre a nudist, then. You are seeking out nude spas because you like them.
Nudist venues are available just about everywhere - that does not make mixed-sex nudity the cultural norm.
I don't think this is necessarily true; where I live all the mixed sex saunas require nudity, making it a cultural norm in the context of a spa/sauna. It isn't allowed to enter a sauna in a bathing suit, you must be naked and seated on your towel, so this person likely just enjoys saunas as well as the freedom that does come with being naked in a place where nudity is not really considered sexual in such a context. That said, nearly all these spas tend to have separate changing areas for men and women, which shows that despite mixed sex nudity being normal the need for sex segregation is still acknowledged where people are likely to be isolated and vulnerable.