Okay, fair enough; your ideological project is to boffsidez political violence. At least you're not hiding the ball here. I'll keep that duly in mind when evaluating whether to believe future claims of left-coded violence emanating from this podcast.
I do, however, have to react to the claim that "RiOtZ" are "political violence" with a hearty "lmao, get the fuck out of here," however.
Okay, fair enough; your ideological project is to boffsidez political violence. At least you're not hiding the ball here. I'll keep that duly in mind when evaluating whether to believe future claims of left-coded violence emanating from this podcast.
I do, however, have to react to the claim that "RiOtZ" are "political violence" with a hearty "lmao, get the fuck out of here," however.
Glad to come to an understanding, then. Believe what you want; I'm rigorous in my approach to factual accuracy and work hard to ensure every claim I put forward in podcast notes is checked and cited appropriately.
Your flippancy towards riots is reprehensible, but it's a common affliction among leftists so I won't dwell on it too much. Take care.
To be fair, the riots were mostly peaceful! Like, you know, 51/49! Clear majority. As for the businesses that were destroyed, well bro, that's what insurance is for! Or something.
I would be less "flippant" toward RiOtZ if it wasn't the hack right-wing whataboutism of choice when confronted with literally any issue even tangentially related to civil rights. It's so utterly uncoupled from the subject of this pod that it can only be understood as a kind of knee-jerk response or defense mechanism.
In no conceivable world, other than the Fox News Expanded Comic Universe I guess, are RiOtZ comparable to the far right's practice of targeted and stochastic political killings.
The right would not be able to keep bringing up riots/political violence in response to serious discussions about civil rights issues if we stopped defending them. I really believe this.
We can say тАЬyes, just as you condemn xyz violence coming from your side, we condemn abc violence coming from ours. That does not change the argument that (whatever) policy benefits (whatever) and is necessary because (these things).тАЭ
We can make a tactical choice to stop making excuses for political violence (including threats) when they come from our side тАФ and rob our opponents of the talking point. (Of course, we could also condemn political violence coming from our side because we really DO condemn it/think itтАЩs wrong.)
I genuinely have no idea how you could possibly believe this. Have you somehow missed the 4566629 different accusations that Democrats want to defund police in the last few years, despite the fact that to my knowledge literally no Democratic elected officials support that idea and dozens of them have explicitly condemned it?
If you are apologizing in politics, you are immediately losing. Republicans do not condemn their own, and they are correct in that tactical assessment.
Agree to disagree. I think we look like assholes (to normies) when we *donтАЩt* say тАЬWeтАЩre the party of debate, free speech, persuasion, and democracy. We condemn political violence and encourage open inquiry. Bad behavior is bad behavior regardless of whether or not I agree with the aims of the person behaving badly.тАЭ
We donтАЩt just look like assholes when we minimize or apologize for political violence, threats, even mobs shutting down events тАФ we also look like we either donтАЩt think our ideas will withstand questioning or think other people will be too stupid to understand the things we understand.
ThereтАЩs not one right answer, obviously, and it can be risky to publicly condemn your own team. But itтАЩs also risky not to.
I have (very civil) conversations with right wing people all the time. I make no secret of my politics. Of course they come out swinging with whatever latest idiot thing they saw on fox news. It is *entirely disarming* for me to just immediately agree with them about at least some aspect of that thing being bullshit. And itтАЩs easy for me to do that, genuinely. And why wouldnтАЩt I? It seems unnatural for me to defend something I really do think is stupid or wrong.
And we have a laugh about it, we start with agreement, and when we do get into the substance of the issue they have no reason to be defensive, and the actual ideas can be separated from their worst proponents.
So, thatтАЩs why I possibly believe that. I know these people. TheyтАЩre just people. Yes, theyтАЩre all about guns and god and whatnot, but they are also kind and decent. I think they are wrong about a lot, but I donтАЩt think they are hateful. And IтАЩm not going to pretend I think something is okay just because someone on тАШmy teamтАЩ did it. Fuck that.
And those people then change their minds and vote for Democrats? Because if not, you're doing politics wrong, or at the very least unsuccessfully. The point is not to have chummy conversations, it's to build and win power. If all you are doing is convincing them that "even liberals admit deep down that we're right," your tactics are negative effective.
"And those people then change their minds and vote for Democrats? Because if not, you're doing politics wrong, or at the very least unsuccessfully. The point is not to have chummy conversations, it's to build and win power."
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics (specifically electoral politics) works. Trying to win votes is one aspect of the process, the other is influencing the opposition. One will never win all the voters or forever be in power, there will always be a need for compromise. Demonizing one's opposition is for fools and zealots. It makes it very difficult to have constructive dialog with a group of people one will never get rid of and will always be forced to interact. This applies both intra and inter-nationally, to all forms of politics but especially within a nation that must compromise within an electorate that is as politically diverse as our own.
Its a common mistake but only the right seems to be called on it, in fact the left seems to be abetted by the media. Its not "whataboutism" to hold everyone to the same standard and when we fail to do so that hypocrisy erodes trust in our institutions by the electorate, as we're seeing now. Frankly, it erodes trust in interpersonal relationships as well, like say, a comment thread...
It's not "demonizing" someone to say that their policy platform is shit and will harm people if enacted, and that your platform is better. That is, in fact, how ordinary politics in functional democracies (query whether the United States qualifies as such, but I digress) works. I think it's good to spend money on healthcare, you think that it's good to spend money on prosecuting and imprisoning women for having abortions, we make our case to the voters and they elect a government.
By contrast, and to return to the original point of this subthread, I'm unaware of any party, political movement, or electoral faction worldwide that believes that the path to success is to loudly and repeatedly make a point of saying how some other faction really has some good ideas to think about. That's just playing to lose.
Criticizing someoneтАЩs platform is indeed how politics used to work, calling anyone you disagree with a Nazi and glorifying violence against them is how it seems to work now. Which is to say it doesnтАЩt work well at all.
If it were as you described, debating abortion policy thatтАЩd be great but instead weтАЩre calling each bible-thumpers and baby-killers and its become even more unproductive than usual.
The pathway to success is to contrast your policies against your opponent but you still have to live with those people.
Politics isnтАЩt just about campaigning you have to govern too. And a scorched earth approach in the former will make the latter impossible. Its why Trump was so good at the one and so shit at the other.
Failure to recognize these requirements is why weтАЩre collectively losing.
For the record, I believe that the original point was that we should condemn violence and threats of violence and disavow bad actors and bad behavior when it occurs on our "team". Not that we should concede -any- arguments just to be buddy-buddy with conservatives.
Although, *if* some other faction really *did* have some good ideas to think about, then thinking about/considering those ideas is the right thing to do. Plus, it's just polite. If someone makes a good point or has a reasonable objection -- even if you think you can easily counter that objection -- there's no reason to be a dick. You can easily acknowledge that it's worth considering, you did consider it, and here's how you resolve it. You may even learn something valuable and gain a perspective that weren't previously aware of, adjust your policy recommendation appropriately, thereby making it more palatable to a greater number of people.
I think acknowledging and addressing earnestly presented ideas and objections, even giving them a second look sometimes just to be sure, is how to *win*. Maybe not politics, but surely it's how you win at life.
You are not "winning" converts with your positions, Zagarma. It's people like you who have driven me to the center and made me despise much of the Democratic Party. Is that your goal? smh
I like how the people who support political violence on the left are also the ones least likely to ever punch anyone, nazi or otherwise. Put your money where your fists is I say! Start punching first, ask questions later. Otherwise it's just nice armchair QBing. At least the right's lunatics are willing to go out and act on their insane values. The left's lunatics are just active on message boards.
I doubt it, no. At least, not in the short term. However, I do think it helps counter the media narrative about the crazy left that they are constantly being fed. And certain conversations have definitely brought new perspective and caused reconsideration of specific policy issues/positions.
I think we (you and I) probably disagree about polarization. To me, itтАЩs a bad thing to think so starkly in terms of teams, us/them, etc. I do believe that there is more that unites us, yadda yadda. These friendships and connections across party lines used to be more common, and I think theyтАЩre a good thing just for their own sake тАФ to understand each other better without having a focus on changing minds. So I guess itтАЩs okay with me if my politically-opposite friends think тАЬhurdy-hur the libtard agrees that burning down small businesses is badтАЭ (IтАЩm assuming thatтАЩs how you imagine them).
Despite the fact itтАЩs been like this for years now, I still find the whole shift in attitudes to political violence on the left as both bizarre and incredibly depressing.
Once upon a time the idea that dehumanising anyone (and letтАЩs be honest that is exactly whatтАЩs going on here) to the point where you can justify physical violence against them, even people who you believed to hold truly repugnant views would have alien to all but the tiniest most extreme branches of the left. ItтАЩs now quite mainstream.
Highlighting it isnтАЩt тАШbothsidesismтАЩ itтАЩs challenging people whose entire world view purports to be being about trying to create a more just society and you would hope that such a world doesnтАЩt involve being assaulted for wrongthink.
It is one of the symptoms of so much of left abandoning a humanist/universalist & materialist outlook. I think IdPol inevitably leads to a more manichean outlook which in turn makes violence easier to justify.
I too would love to see the left actually challenge the idea that assaulting anyone is wrong no matter what their views and the fact that the Right may be worse, more hypocritical or even less likely to call it out is simply irrelevant to the values left wing movements stand by.
I think the idiotic idea that holding certain view makes you a legitimate target for violence or that you can play some bs language to claim that words are тАШviolenceтАЩ and actual violence mere self defence isnтАЩt unsustainable long term, but I think weтАЩll be waiting a while before some kind of sanity prevails.
I feel like there's some joke here about how being dehumanized is literally what furries want, but let's set that to one side.
I think your analysis of left history is quite badly wrong here. For most of human history, the use of violence to achieve political objectives has been the norm, and the use of persuasion has been an aberrant (if welcome) exception. Gandhi's development of really effective nonviolent pressure tactics was not out of nothing, but it was a significant development in left ideology that helped it seize the moral high ground. But nonviolence has never been the sole or even, I think, the majority viewpoint among leftists (or anyone, for that matter).
The problem, at this point, is that the right wing has developed effective antidotes against some of the most popular Gandhiesque tactics-- union-busting and propaganda control of media are extremely effective at diminishing the utility of direct-action tactics. So I think a lot of leftists are looking around for new strategies in light of the failures of the old toolbox, and some of them have settled--wrongly, I think, but not unreasonably-- on the notion that eye-for-an-eye retaliation is the only way to deter further increase in the ever-escalating levels of right-wing repression that they're facing.
Given Gandhi was 80+ years ago, thatтАЩs basically everyoneтАЩs living memory.
Also, the reasons you sight clearly are the reasons for the shift, itтАЩs due to a shift in outlook & the rise of an identinarian outlook which in terms of being wide spread is only the last 30years.
Given that itтАЩs as likely to directed at people who by any meaningful criteria actually hold left wing politics as it is against the тАШrightтАЩ I think it really is тАШunreasonableтАЩ.
This theory suffers from the fairly basic problem that the 1960s left was MUCH more violent-- the Panthers, the Nation of Islam, the Weathermen, etc.-- than the less successful 1990s left, or today's for that matter. As I said, your history is wrong and it's leading you to misdiagnose the current problem.
Your attempts to claim that literal murderers and people who meet any meaningful definition of terrorist were anything but on the extremes and would have been utterly denounced by the vast majority of people on the left is shall we be kind and say...tenuous.
You might want to have a think about how an argument the suggests people willing to engage in such forms of extreme violence as part of the normal left leaves you?
Any definition of mainstream that defines Malcolm X as "not mainstream" is not fit for purpose. His arguments, and other essentially revolutionary arguments, were absolutely part of mainstream left discussion in the 1960s.
Given he was A. Dead and B. His views evolved, we have no way of knowing whether heтАЩd have supported the type of violence seen in the 70s and I think thereтАЩs little chance heтАЩd support the self indulgent nonsense of the online тАШpunch a NaziтАЩ brigade.
He was a serious thinker, these people simply arenтАЩt.
The options are merely political violence is ok or pacifism.
Okay, fair enough; your ideological project is to boffsidez political violence. At least you're not hiding the ball here. I'll keep that duly in mind when evaluating whether to believe future claims of left-coded violence emanating from this podcast.
I do, however, have to react to the claim that "RiOtZ" are "political violence" with a hearty "lmao, get the fuck out of here," however.
Glad to come to an understanding, then. Believe what you want; I'm rigorous in my approach to factual accuracy and work hard to ensure every claim I put forward in podcast notes is checked and cited appropriately.
Your flippancy towards riots is reprehensible, but it's a common affliction among leftists so I won't dwell on it too much. Take care.
To be fair, the riots were mostly peaceful! Like, you know, 51/49! Clear majority. As for the businesses that were destroyed, well bro, that's what insurance is for! Or something.
I would be less "flippant" toward RiOtZ if it wasn't the hack right-wing whataboutism of choice when confronted with literally any issue even tangentially related to civil rights. It's so utterly uncoupled from the subject of this pod that it can only be understood as a kind of knee-jerk response or defense mechanism.
In no conceivable world, other than the Fox News Expanded Comic Universe I guess, are RiOtZ comparable to the far right's practice of targeted and stochastic political killings.
The right would not be able to keep bringing up riots/political violence in response to serious discussions about civil rights issues if we stopped defending them. I really believe this.
We can say тАЬyes, just as you condemn xyz violence coming from your side, we condemn abc violence coming from ours. That does not change the argument that (whatever) policy benefits (whatever) and is necessary because (these things).тАЭ
We can make a tactical choice to stop making excuses for political violence (including threats) when they come from our side тАФ and rob our opponents of the talking point. (Of course, we could also condemn political violence coming from our side because we really DO condemn it/think itтАЩs wrong.)
I genuinely have no idea how you could possibly believe this. Have you somehow missed the 4566629 different accusations that Democrats want to defund police in the last few years, despite the fact that to my knowledge literally no Democratic elected officials support that idea and dozens of them have explicitly condemned it?
If you are apologizing in politics, you are immediately losing. Republicans do not condemn their own, and they are correct in that tactical assessment.
Agree to disagree. I think we look like assholes (to normies) when we *donтАЩt* say тАЬWeтАЩre the party of debate, free speech, persuasion, and democracy. We condemn political violence and encourage open inquiry. Bad behavior is bad behavior regardless of whether or not I agree with the aims of the person behaving badly.тАЭ
We donтАЩt just look like assholes when we minimize or apologize for political violence, threats, even mobs shutting down events тАФ we also look like we either donтАЩt think our ideas will withstand questioning or think other people will be too stupid to understand the things we understand.
ThereтАЩs not one right answer, obviously, and it can be risky to publicly condemn your own team. But itтАЩs also risky not to.
I have (very civil) conversations with right wing people all the time. I make no secret of my politics. Of course they come out swinging with whatever latest idiot thing they saw on fox news. It is *entirely disarming* for me to just immediately agree with them about at least some aspect of that thing being bullshit. And itтАЩs easy for me to do that, genuinely. And why wouldnтАЩt I? It seems unnatural for me to defend something I really do think is stupid or wrong.
And we have a laugh about it, we start with agreement, and when we do get into the substance of the issue they have no reason to be defensive, and the actual ideas can be separated from their worst proponents.
So, thatтАЩs why I possibly believe that. I know these people. TheyтАЩre just people. Yes, theyтАЩre all about guns and god and whatnot, but they are also kind and decent. I think they are wrong about a lot, but I donтАЩt think they are hateful. And IтАЩm not going to pretend I think something is okay just because someone on тАШmy teamтАЩ did it. Fuck that.
And those people then change their minds and vote for Democrats? Because if not, you're doing politics wrong, or at the very least unsuccessfully. The point is not to have chummy conversations, it's to build and win power. If all you are doing is convincing them that "even liberals admit deep down that we're right," your tactics are negative effective.
"And those people then change their minds and vote for Democrats? Because if not, you're doing politics wrong, or at the very least unsuccessfully. The point is not to have chummy conversations, it's to build and win power."
This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how politics (specifically electoral politics) works. Trying to win votes is one aspect of the process, the other is influencing the opposition. One will never win all the voters or forever be in power, there will always be a need for compromise. Demonizing one's opposition is for fools and zealots. It makes it very difficult to have constructive dialog with a group of people one will never get rid of and will always be forced to interact. This applies both intra and inter-nationally, to all forms of politics but especially within a nation that must compromise within an electorate that is as politically diverse as our own.
Its a common mistake but only the right seems to be called on it, in fact the left seems to be abetted by the media. Its not "whataboutism" to hold everyone to the same standard and when we fail to do so that hypocrisy erodes trust in our institutions by the electorate, as we're seeing now. Frankly, it erodes trust in interpersonal relationships as well, like say, a comment thread...
It's not "demonizing" someone to say that their policy platform is shit and will harm people if enacted, and that your platform is better. That is, in fact, how ordinary politics in functional democracies (query whether the United States qualifies as such, but I digress) works. I think it's good to spend money on healthcare, you think that it's good to spend money on prosecuting and imprisoning women for having abortions, we make our case to the voters and they elect a government.
By contrast, and to return to the original point of this subthread, I'm unaware of any party, political movement, or electoral faction worldwide that believes that the path to success is to loudly and repeatedly make a point of saying how some other faction really has some good ideas to think about. That's just playing to lose.
Criticizing someoneтАЩs platform is indeed how politics used to work, calling anyone you disagree with a Nazi and glorifying violence against them is how it seems to work now. Which is to say it doesnтАЩt work well at all.
If it were as you described, debating abortion policy thatтАЩd be great but instead weтАЩre calling each bible-thumpers and baby-killers and its become even more unproductive than usual.
The pathway to success is to contrast your policies against your opponent but you still have to live with those people.
Politics isnтАЩt just about campaigning you have to govern too. And a scorched earth approach in the former will make the latter impossible. Its why Trump was so good at the one and so shit at the other.
Failure to recognize these requirements is why weтАЩre collectively losing.
For the record, I believe that the original point was that we should condemn violence and threats of violence and disavow bad actors and bad behavior when it occurs on our "team". Not that we should concede -any- arguments just to be buddy-buddy with conservatives.
Although, *if* some other faction really *did* have some good ideas to think about, then thinking about/considering those ideas is the right thing to do. Plus, it's just polite. If someone makes a good point or has a reasonable objection -- even if you think you can easily counter that objection -- there's no reason to be a dick. You can easily acknowledge that it's worth considering, you did consider it, and here's how you resolve it. You may even learn something valuable and gain a perspective that weren't previously aware of, adjust your policy recommendation appropriately, thereby making it more palatable to a greater number of people.
I think acknowledging and addressing earnestly presented ideas and objections, even giving them a second look sometimes just to be sure, is how to *win*. Maybe not politics, but surely it's how you win at life.
You are not "winning" converts with your positions, Zagarma. It's people like you who have driven me to the center and made me despise much of the Democratic Party. Is that your goal? smh
I like how the people who support political violence on the left are also the ones least likely to ever punch anyone, nazi or otherwise. Put your money where your fists is I say! Start punching first, ask questions later. Otherwise it's just nice armchair QBing. At least the right's lunatics are willing to go out and act on their insane values. The left's lunatics are just active on message boards.
"People like you" who... what? Spell it out, then.
I doubt it, no. At least, not in the short term. However, I do think it helps counter the media narrative about the crazy left that they are constantly being fed. And certain conversations have definitely brought new perspective and caused reconsideration of specific policy issues/positions.
I think we (you and I) probably disagree about polarization. To me, itтАЩs a bad thing to think so starkly in terms of teams, us/them, etc. I do believe that there is more that unites us, yadda yadda. These friendships and connections across party lines used to be more common, and I think theyтАЩre a good thing just for their own sake тАФ to understand each other better without having a focus on changing minds. So I guess itтАЩs okay with me if my politically-opposite friends think тАЬhurdy-hur the libtard agrees that burning down small businesses is badтАЭ (IтАЩm assuming thatтАЩs how you imagine them).
I thought your comment on the affidavit was good, but this is very unfair to Trace.
Despite the fact itтАЩs been like this for years now, I still find the whole shift in attitudes to political violence on the left as both bizarre and incredibly depressing.
Once upon a time the idea that dehumanising anyone (and letтАЩs be honest that is exactly whatтАЩs going on here) to the point where you can justify physical violence against them, even people who you believed to hold truly repugnant views would have alien to all but the tiniest most extreme branches of the left. ItтАЩs now quite mainstream.
Highlighting it isnтАЩt тАШbothsidesismтАЩ itтАЩs challenging people whose entire world view purports to be being about trying to create a more just society and you would hope that such a world doesnтАЩt involve being assaulted for wrongthink.
It is one of the symptoms of so much of left abandoning a humanist/universalist & materialist outlook. I think IdPol inevitably leads to a more manichean outlook which in turn makes violence easier to justify.
I too would love to see the left actually challenge the idea that assaulting anyone is wrong no matter what their views and the fact that the Right may be worse, more hypocritical or even less likely to call it out is simply irrelevant to the values left wing movements stand by.
I think the idiotic idea that holding certain view makes you a legitimate target for violence or that you can play some bs language to claim that words are тАШviolenceтАЩ and actual violence mere self defence isnтАЩt unsustainable long term, but I think weтАЩll be waiting a while before some kind of sanity prevails.
I feel like there's some joke here about how being dehumanized is literally what furries want, but let's set that to one side.
I think your analysis of left history is quite badly wrong here. For most of human history, the use of violence to achieve political objectives has been the norm, and the use of persuasion has been an aberrant (if welcome) exception. Gandhi's development of really effective nonviolent pressure tactics was not out of nothing, but it was a significant development in left ideology that helped it seize the moral high ground. But nonviolence has never been the sole or even, I think, the majority viewpoint among leftists (or anyone, for that matter).
The problem, at this point, is that the right wing has developed effective antidotes against some of the most popular Gandhiesque tactics-- union-busting and propaganda control of media are extremely effective at diminishing the utility of direct-action tactics. So I think a lot of leftists are looking around for new strategies in light of the failures of the old toolbox, and some of them have settled--wrongly, I think, but not unreasonably-- on the notion that eye-for-an-eye retaliation is the only way to deter further increase in the ever-escalating levels of right-wing repression that they're facing.
Given Gandhi was 80+ years ago, thatтАЩs basically everyoneтАЩs living memory.
Also, the reasons you sight clearly are the reasons for the shift, itтАЩs due to a shift in outlook & the rise of an identinarian outlook which in terms of being wide spread is only the last 30years.
Given that itтАЩs as likely to directed at people who by any meaningful criteria actually hold left wing politics as it is against the тАШrightтАЩ I think it really is тАШunreasonableтАЩ.
This theory suffers from the fairly basic problem that the 1960s left was MUCH more violent-- the Panthers, the Nation of Islam, the Weathermen, etc.-- than the less successful 1990s left, or today's for that matter. As I said, your history is wrong and it's leading you to misdiagnose the current problem.
Your attempts to claim that literal murderers and people who meet any meaningful definition of terrorist were anything but on the extremes and would have been utterly denounced by the vast majority of people on the left is shall we be kind and say...tenuous.
You might want to have a think about how an argument the suggests people willing to engage in such forms of extreme violence as part of the normal left leaves you?
Any definition of mainstream that defines Malcolm X as "not mainstream" is not fit for purpose. His arguments, and other essentially revolutionary arguments, were absolutely part of mainstream left discussion in the 1960s.
Given he was A. Dead and B. His views evolved, we have no way of knowing whether heтАЩd have supported the type of violence seen in the 70s and I think thereтАЩs little chance heтАЩd support the self indulgent nonsense of the online тАШpunch a NaziтАЩ brigade.
He was a serious thinker, these people simply arenтАЩt.
The options are merely political violence is ok or pacifism.
тАЬThe options are merely political violence is ok or pacifismтАЭ
тАЬArenтАЩtтАЭ...typos.